M4-2 or M4-P?

[xayraa33]

Like I said, I really like my Leica M4-2 , it has served me well, and continues to do so.

 

[CameraQuest]

UGH Two Poor Choices

UGH Two Poor Choices

both the M4-2 and M4-P will take fine pics indistinguisable from other Leica M's using the same lens.

and the M4-2 single handedly saved Leica from going belly up. After poor M5 sales Leica managment decided foolishly to discontinue Leica M production. Only a very stubborn Leica Canada Midlands manager succeeded in restarting M production with the M4-2 in Canada. this incredible contribution is STILL not recognized in official Leica company histories.

that being said, both the M4-2 and M4-P unfortuanately feel really CHEAP side by side all the Leica M's that proceeded them, or that followed them. They are the ONLY Leica M's I have never had as a personal M camera -- and never will.

So long as you don't compare the M4-2 or M4-P side by side with the M3, M2, M4, M5, M6, M7 or MP, you will be happy with them. But once you do, the M4-2 and M4-P is finished for most Leica lovers who value craftsmanship as a big part of thier Leica M experience. There is a good reason they sell for less in the same condition as the other M's-- the M4-2 and M4-P are not a popular in the marketplace for good reason.

Stephen

 

[xayraa33]

I had an M3 and an M4 before I got the M4-2, I did not find too big a difference in build quality.

 

[richard_l]

.....that being said, both the M4-2 and M4-P unfortuanately feel really CHEAP side by side all the Leica M's that proceeded them, or that followed them.....

That comes as quite a surprise, Stephen.
I've never heard that before.

 

[MikeL]

I had an M3 and an M4 before I got the M4-2, I did not find too big a difference in build quality.

Me neither. I have an M4 and M4-P. Before I bought the M4-P I asked a guy who uses M's a lot whether there was a difference in build or reliability. He rolled his eyes and said,"Leica people are crazy, beware."

 

[normclarke]

Hi guys,
Just my 2 cents worth, I have owned about six Leica's in the past 15 years and found in my estimation little to justify the ongoing 'mine's bigger than your's' arguement when it comes to individual models. I found that the finder frames in the models up to the 4-2 to be more reflective of the actual image than the models 4-P onward and this to be the biggest factor in comparison. This has been widely commented upon on the net. I must say that I was supprised at the claimed retort of Ms Krauter. I would not like to claim to be a greater expert but this 'jars' with my own experiences. If the 4-2 is crap I hardly think what the verdit is on the M6 and M6TTL.

Cheers
normclarke

 

[Nick R.]

.....that being said, both the M4-2 and M4-P unfortuanately feel really CHEAP side by side all the Leica M's that proceeded them, or that followed them.....

That mistaken belief is why these are two of the best bargain cameras in Leicadom.

 

[Ben Z]

So long as you don't compare the M4-2 or M4-P side by side with the M3, M2, M4, M5, M6, M7 or MP, you will be happy with them.
Stephen

There's no disagreement that Leica took a turn toward the realities of profitability after the M5 and that's reflected in numerous measures to lower the manufacturing cost of the cameras and lenses. However you would be hard-put to find a qualified Leica repairman who would concur that the trend reversed itself starting with the M6. In fact it's widely held (and I can see it point by point owning both an early Wetzlar and an end-run M6 Classic) that the long run of the M6 saw a continual economizing in internal structures*. The MP has had some improvement in a couple areas, but by and large it picked up where the last M6TTL left off in terms of those economy moves. And I'll have to go with the screw-in eyepiece of the M6 as a vastly more craftsmanlike design than the one in the MP with the 1mm gap on one side that needs a rubber seal and possibly a dab of caulk as well.


*Occasionally, this worked in the customers' favor, as a lucky coincidence. A good example are the strap lug attachments. Through the early M6 classics the strap lugs are attached with a single stud, crimped on the inside of the body. This required the assembler to position them at exactly the right rotational position and crimp them securely. However the single stud allows them to rotate and get loose if they're torqued such as by a strap ring being twisted, or use of a wrist strap. Leica changed the design, so that the lugs are now attached with 2 small screws from inside. This was done because it fixes the positioning and needs someone only to be able to tighten the screws, taking away the need for a skilled assembler. The lucky coincidence is that this cost-cutting measure is such that the 2 screws do not permit the lug to rotate.

Another example are the shutter light-seals. Originally they were 2 stips of felt glued to the shutter crate fore and aft of the curtains. These can occasionally result in light leakage. Leica changed to a single strip of mylar plastic folded so it shields both side of the curtains. It's a simpler, cheaper design but coincidentally it just happens to be a more effective seal.

 

[thmk]

Hi all,

many thanks for your comments and votings. I am "sorry" to say that I decided against the majority and took the M4-2 🙂 The camera is really in very good condition. Only a few scratches on the bottom plate. The price was not that low but I bought from a very reliable dealer in Hamburg and that is worth the extra money, at least for me. I had too much trouble in the past with buying cheap.

Cheers
Thomas-Michael

 

[Treb]

Nice piece of kit! Have fun with it.

 

[x-ray]

I've owned many Leica M's over thirty eight years and shot tens of thousands of rolls through them. It'a all been heavy professional use. In the mix has been an M4-2 and a couple of M4-P's. None have ever been an issue and the only repairs that I've had have been a self timer spring on a very early M3 and two RF alignments. Not to shabby for that much use. If you're not in the trenches in the middle east or shooting a thousand rolls a year you should never have any problems with any M leica. I'm still using my 1960 M2, M6 classic, MP and have a new MP a la carte on order. If I haven't worn them out you probably will not either.


http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=2450

 

[35mmdelux]

One of my favorites besides the M6 Classic is the M4-P. Even though I don't always use the 28mm framelines I like to know its available. Recently I owned a .85 Mag M6TTL and didn't like it for my style of shooting. I tend to prefer the 35 Summilux and therefore I can carry it on my M6 Classic or my M4-P. The M4-P is a M6 without the meter.

If it hasn't been serviced that is great IMO. This way you can send it in yourself and make certain all the bases are covered. What good is it if someone sent it in a few years ago since you don't truly know how the camera has been treated since.

IMO the M4-P is one of the best modern cameras. The operational term is "modern." Of course, old school likes the M3. But IMO just too much mileage on those babies. I shoot, not collect.

Remember that the M4-P top metal is different: earlier ones were made of zinc and the later models made of brass. How to tell? If the VF is flush w/ the body, the top is made of zinc. If the VF is recessed, then the top is made of brass.

The M4-2 is nice, but consider breaking on thru to the other side! The Doors.

Good luck w/ your choice.

 

[Treb]

Remember that the M4-P top metal is different: earlier ones were made of zinc and the later models made of brass.

It's just the other way around IIRC, later models have the zinc M6 top cover.

 

[ulyssescat]

Well I guess you can say that everyone has different opinions.Some based on fact,some based on pure snobbish elitism.
I have owned a brand new M7(sold it to pay a tax bill),a DS M3(lost it) and I now have an M4-P.
And do you know what?
I can't tell the difference between any of them.My results are the same.Don't believe the hype dudes.You can argue all day long which is the best and you are welcome to express a preference,but the evidence is not really conclusive,and virtually impossible to prove realistically.
If you are a collector then maybe the M4-P is not the way to go.It certainly doesn't hold its price as well.I get the feeling you are a user though,so ........
Quid pro quo,so little time,so much to know.