robbeiflex
Well-known
Hi all,
My local shop has an M4-P in great condition for €850. I have yet to fully test that it's OK, but assuming it is should I go for it or wait until I find a nice user M6? I have a VC II meter to put on it, and actually kind of like the external meter because I can meter before I wind and therefore not waste a frame at night if its too dark. However, my main camera now is a CV Bessa based Rollei 35RF with the same built in meter as the CV Bessa. Will I miss the built in meter too much, and more importantly is this too much to pay when decent user M6s from France and Germany sell on the auction site for under 1000€?
Thanks,
Rob
My local shop has an M4-P in great condition for €850. I have yet to fully test that it's OK, but assuming it is should I go for it or wait until I find a nice user M6? I have a VC II meter to put on it, and actually kind of like the external meter because I can meter before I wind and therefore not waste a frame at night if its too dark. However, my main camera now is a CV Bessa based Rollei 35RF with the same built in meter as the CV Bessa. Will I miss the built in meter too much, and more importantly is this too much to pay when decent user M6s from France and Germany sell on the auction site for under 1000€?
Thanks,
Rob
maddoc
... likes film again.
Import tax is expensive in Europe so the price might be OK, especially since you can test the camera (and maybe return it if you find some problems). Otherwise, very good copies of the M4-P sell for around $900 usually, with M6 (classic) not so much more expensive.
Personally, I like the M4-P better than the M6 (classic) because of the larger frame-lines (old style like in the M5, M4, M2) while the frame-lines (50mm) of the M6 (and all later models) are to small for my taste). Also, I am not a fan of the internal meter without AE (M7). Lifting the camera to the eye to measure exposure and fiddling with the small shutter-speed dial to set correct exposure is more difficult than using an external meter, IMHO.
Cheers,
Gabor
Personally, I like the M4-P better than the M6 (classic) because of the larger frame-lines (old style like in the M5, M4, M2) while the frame-lines (50mm) of the M6 (and all later models) are to small for my taste). Also, I am not a fan of the internal meter without AE (M7). Lifting the camera to the eye to measure exposure and fiddling with the small shutter-speed dial to set correct exposure is more difficult than using an external meter, IMHO.
Cheers,
Gabor
SolaresLarrave
My M5s need red dots!
I went to meterless bodies after using my M6TTLs a lot (I have two).
Initially, since I had not done a lot of "sunny 16" or used an external meter, using my M3 was a source of anxiety; I metered every shot and never trusted my memory or my metering eye...
But then, one day I decided to use ONLY ISO 400 print film with my meterless cameras (M4-2 and M3), so I walked around with my Sekonic (and camera), took a lot of photographs on a series of different lighting situations, memorized the settings for each circumstance, and was later able to step out of the house without a meter
eek and still get decently exposed shots (print film + Photoshop = easy fix).
So, you may go through some anxiety... but then, once you overcome it, using the M4-P will become a joy (it makes you feel smart! ).
Now... I did wait to get a metered Leica before buying my first...
Initially, since I had not done a lot of "sunny 16" or used an external meter, using my M3 was a source of anxiety; I metered every shot and never trusted my memory or my metering eye...
But then, one day I decided to use ONLY ISO 400 print film with my meterless cameras (M4-2 and M3), so I walked around with my Sekonic (and camera), took a lot of photographs on a series of different lighting situations, memorized the settings for each circumstance, and was later able to step out of the house without a meter
eek and still get decently exposed shots (print film + Photoshop = easy fix). So, you may go through some anxiety... but then, once you overcome it, using the M4-P will become a joy (it makes you feel smart!
). Now... I did wait to get a metered Leica before buying my first...
chrishayton
Well-known
Wow its alot for an m4-p. You could EASILY get an m6 for that price in the UK even an m6 ttl if your lucky.
The M4p is a great camera but the lack of meter may bother you if your used to it. Expect to pay 550euro for a good one. ( I pay £350 for a exc conditoned camera)
The M4p is a great camera but the lack of meter may bother you if your used to it. Expect to pay 550euro for a good one. ( I pay £350 for a exc conditoned camera)
chrishayton
Well-known
Actually seems the pound is doing better than i thought. You could still buy an m6 for that price though (not a ttl)
robbeiflex
Well-known
Since it's already here that's not an issue, but true enough the price does include 15% VAT, unlike in the US and Canada (and not sure where else) where sales tax is on top.
ferider
Veteran
What Gabor said, I have both M4P and M6 and for serious stuff prefer the M4P. Have a look at the viewfinder though: late M4Ps with flush viewfinder have M6 framelines. Like Gabor, I prefer the earlier ones (recessed window) better, also because the top is made of brass, not zinc.
Price is subjective. People will tell you they are a bit cheaper here or there, but the fact that you can look at the camera and try it before you buy, is invaluable, possibly will save you a lot of time and is easily worth a couple of hundred dollars.
Think about how much you get paid by hour in your day job. And how many hours you will spend looking for a camera, and getting it fixed if necessary. That's what I do typically, anyways.
Roland.
Price is subjective. People will tell you they are a bit cheaper here or there, but the fact that you can look at the camera and try it before you buy, is invaluable, possibly will save you a lot of time and is easily worth a couple of hundred dollars.
Think about how much you get paid by hour in your day job. And how many hours you will spend looking for a camera, and getting it fixed if necessary. That's what I do typically, anyways.
Roland.
Last edited:
robbeiflex
Well-known
Thanks for that. I was wondering if I should offer less than the list and see if they take it. That's not something people in Luxembourg typically do, but I can always play stupid foreigner and give it a try.
robbeiflex
Well-known
That's great advice from both you and Gabor! I will check the viewfinder both for quality and model. I read that the flush M6 viewfinder raises the price as a collectible but has nothing to do with whether it is a good user camera or not, so I would look for the earlier one anyway.
Last edited:
Mablo
Well-known
A vote for M4-P from me too. M6 doesn't really add much to it. M7 is another matter entirely but it costs muchos dineros. €850 seems a little steep to me for a used M4-P though.
ampguy
Veteran
I would go for the M6, primarily for the built in meter.
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
For the money the shop is asking for the M4P - it better be "new - in the box". You can get a user M4P for considerably less in the RFf's classified - even when factoring in shipping/VAT etc. Use the balance to get a decent 50 or 35 instead.
The M4P is a very well built camera. Slightly "rougher" advance mechanism as it uses steel gears rather than brass. However it will smooth out with use.
The M6 is just a M4P with a built in meter - and the M4P is just a M6 with a dead bettery!!
Unless you are going to be using 28/75mm lenses - also look at the M2. Perfect finder with its 35/50/90 set-up. Less money usually - and a dedicated following - which means there is always a market for them if you decided that RF's are not for you. The M4P has a more fluctuating fan-base - and this does affect the resale price.
The loading/un-loading of a M2 is not at all complicated - just as quick as with the "tulip" - and a bit more secure.
The M4P is a very well built camera. Slightly "rougher" advance mechanism as it uses steel gears rather than brass. However it will smooth out with use.
The M6 is just a M4P with a built in meter - and the M4P is just a M6 with a dead bettery!!
Unless you are going to be using 28/75mm lenses - also look at the M2. Perfect finder with its 35/50/90 set-up. Less money usually - and a dedicated following - which means there is always a market for them if you decided that RF's are not for you. The M4P has a more fluctuating fan-base - and this does affect the resale price.
The loading/un-loading of a M2 is not at all complicated - just as quick as with the "tulip" - and a bit more secure.
RichardB
Well-known
M6, best value in a Leica M today.-Dick
v3cron
Well-known
I'd take an M2, M4, or M4-2 over either (pref M2) due to the simpler finders. The M2 and M4 have better rangefinder patches as well.
braver
Well-known
I find the meter to be tremendously useful for an all-day any-situation camera so went for the M6. Saying that doesn't add much is an extremely personal statement!
850 is way too much for an M4P too. It might look good, but chances are it'll need a CLA. If you look around on ebay, you can almost get two M4P's for that money. Buying from the classifieds for peace of mind will still leave enough change for CLA and a nice lens.
You should be able to find a good M6 for under 900. I paid 750 for mine from a local store (although it's definitely a 'user' and needed CLA).
850 is way too much for an M4P too. It might look good, but chances are it'll need a CLA. If you look around on ebay, you can almost get two M4P's for that money. Buying from the classifieds for peace of mind will still leave enough change for CLA and a nice lens.
You should be able to find a good M6 for under 900. I paid 750 for mine from a local store (although it's definitely a 'user' and needed CLA).
robbeiflex
Well-known
Hi all,
I stopped by the shop today and gave it a good inspection. It is in fact in great shape but at that price they couldn't tell me when its last CLA was and they offer no warranty and no returns!
So I left my contact details and told them to get in touch if they want to make a real offer.
Thanks to all for your advice though, especially on the price. I do shoot with my Rolleiflex and formerly with a Zorki with the VC II, and am OK with the external meter although still undecided. I'll take some more time on this, unless they make me an offer I can't refuse.
I stopped by the shop today and gave it a good inspection. It is in fact in great shape but at that price they couldn't tell me when its last CLA was and they offer no warranty and no returns!
So I left my contact details and told them to get in touch if they want to make a real offer.
Thanks to all for your advice though, especially on the price. I do shoot with my Rolleiflex and formerly with a Zorki with the VC II, and am OK with the external meter although still undecided. I'll take some more time on this, unless they make me an offer I can't refuse.
robbeiflex
Well-known
This story just took an unexpected and interesting turn. I decided that I do want an internal meter, and then I was made an offer I couldn't refuse on a Zeiss Ikon ZM with 50mm Planar, so now I'll have AE too!
Now I have to make some room for it in my camera bag and budget. Anyone interested in my Rollei 35RF, Nokton 50 f/1.5, VC II meter, or a Jupiter-8 please check my classified.
Thanks!
Rob
Now I have to make some room for it in my camera bag and budget. Anyone interested in my Rollei 35RF, Nokton 50 f/1.5, VC II meter, or a Jupiter-8 please check my classified.
Thanks!
Rob
umcelinho
Marcelo
Rob,
great! I've been looking for more info on the Zeiss Ikon lately and seems to be quite a good camera. everybody says so many good things about the viewfinder, a shame I don't have access to one to feel it. besides, the black version is supersexy.
great! I've been looking for more info on the Zeiss Ikon lately and seems to be quite a good camera. everybody says so many good things about the viewfinder, a shame I don't have access to one to feel it. besides, the black version is supersexy.
chrispiper
Established
I had come down to the same decision a you: M4-P vs. M6. I originally targeted the M4-P, mostly based on price and the fact that I'm comfortable shooting w/o a meter. But once I really thought about what I wanted to use the camera for I changed my mind. I'll be using the M6 as a backup for paid gigs and hopefully as the primary camera for an all film wedding package I'm working up. Having an in camera meter is just to useful to pass up. If I was using it 100% for personal shots, then I would get the M4-P. But I want to add it to my digital camera for shooting portraits and events so the M6 wins out.
I just checked the tracking and my new-to-me M6 should arrive today, can't wait.
Chris
I just checked the tracking and my new-to-me M6 should arrive today, can't wait.
Chris
robbeiflex
Well-known
It arrived on Wednesday, and I've already run a roll through it on Thursday (holiday!) and then had it processed today while I was at work. I'm very, very impressed with it! And yes it is the supersexy black version.