kingjon
Established
I just bought an M4-P and my buddy(another leicaholic) and I were discussing the finer points of this camera. He says they have a zinc top plate like the M6 quoting the Leica Advanced school and I said I don't think so. I think I remember reading, maybe here, that the early production runs had brass top plates like the other M4's and was switched to zinc midway through production or so. Who is right? Any insight you can provide on this question is greatly appreciated. There is a bottle of JW Blue riding on the outcome.
Thanks,
Jon
Thanks,
Jon
Uwe_Nds
Chief Assistant Driver
Hi Jon,
I checked the German verion of Günter Osterloh "Leica M Hohe Schule der Fotografie" 2nd Edition 1986.
On page 18, the author describes the M4's top and base plates as brass; according to the description on page 21, the M4-P has a 0.8mm zinc top plate and 0.8mm brass bottom plate.
I didn't find anything about brass top plates on the M4-P.
Leica in Solms should know, however. So, why not send them an e-mail?
Best regards,
Uwe
I checked the German verion of Günter Osterloh "Leica M Hohe Schule der Fotografie" 2nd Edition 1986.
On page 18, the author describes the M4's top and base plates as brass; according to the description on page 21, the M4-P has a 0.8mm zinc top plate and 0.8mm brass bottom plate.
I didn't find anything about brass top plates on the M4-P.
Leica in Solms should know, however. So, why not send them an e-mail?
Best regards,
Uwe
Bully
Established
Hello Jon,
congratulations to your M4-P, have much fun with her!
I checked the "Leica Collector´s Guide, 2nd Edition" from Dennis Laney.
In the chapter of the M4-P he describes the top plate as followed (i write in my own words):
As long as the M4-P stood alone in the M-family (between 1980 and 1984) it had the well known brass top plate. With the introduction of the M6 in 1984 it got the same cast zinc top plate. From 1984 the M4-P was produced besides the new flagship Leica M6. I´ve got a price list from 1989 (!)and there you see both sisters side by side. Thats an interesting point because everywhere I read of the M4-P they say it was produced until 1987.
I hope it helps.
Bully
congratulations to your M4-P, have much fun with her!
I checked the "Leica Collector´s Guide, 2nd Edition" from Dennis Laney.
In the chapter of the M4-P he describes the top plate as followed (i write in my own words):
As long as the M4-P stood alone in the M-family (between 1980 and 1984) it had the well known brass top plate. With the introduction of the M6 in 1984 it got the same cast zinc top plate. From 1984 the M4-P was produced besides the new flagship Leica M6. I´ve got a price list from 1989 (!)and there you see both sisters side by side. Thats an interesting point because everywhere I read of the M4-P they say it was produced until 1987.
I hope it helps.
Bully
Film dino
David Chong
Have a look at Andrew Nemeth's page on this-
http://nemeng.com/leica/042b.shtml
http://nemeng.com/leica/042b.shtml
literiter
Well-known
Whether zinc, or brass, the camera is still gold.
thafred
silver addict
just look at the camera, even easier if you have a M6 at hand to compare. the Brass top plates have more beautiful (precise) corners, on the M6´s zinc top plate the corners look a bit rounded, on my old M4-2 they are sharper and look more machined (drilled?..rather than stamped)
quite easy once you´ve seen the difference
quite easy once you´ve seen the difference
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Philippe D.
Cheeeeeese
The M4-P have his top plate as well as the shoe made out of zinc, like the M6.
You can tell the difference with the M4-2 on the scale.
The M4-P shoe weight is 57 g (2 oz) the M4-2: 55 g (1.9 oz) made of brass.
You can tell the difference with the M4-2 on the scale.
The M4-P shoe weight is 57 g (2 oz) the M4-2: 55 g (1.9 oz) made of brass.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
The badly worn black chrome on my M4-P -- 1551xxx -- certainly looks like zinc. It's SO badly worn I think I'd be seeing brass if there were any. But I can't remember exactly when I got it now. Well over 20 years ago.
Cheers,
Roger
Cheers,
Roger
JNewell
Leica M Recidivist
Philippe D. said:
This is not correct. The correct answer is in Bully's post above, but there's an easier way to distinguish the brass from zinc M4-Ps.
Brass M4-Ps have windows that are slightly recessed. Zinc M4-Ps have flush windows with black plastic bezels surrounding the windows. Thafred's pictures show the difference.
Most M4-Ps are brass. Only the last part of production, which partly overlapped the M6, had zinc top plates.
jan normandale
Film is the other way
If you go to the "head bartenders" website you will see the skinny on this anomaly.. basically you're both right...
http://www.cameraquest.com/m4pm6.htm
http://www.cameraquest.com/m4pm6.htm
Ororaro
Well-known
My M4-P is brass and I LOVE it! I drool every time I see it. I love to touch it and I shooting with it is a wonderful joy.
Ownind the M4-P satisfies me and I don't lust for any other M.
Ownind the M4-P satisfies me and I don't lust for any other M.
Philippe D.
Cheeeeeese
Yes, i made a mistake when i say "the bottom plate is made out of zinc". :bang:jan normandale said:
It is, as it was also at that time for the M6, made out of brass (0.8mm thick).
As Bully exactly state, the top plate of the M4-P was made out of zinc only by 1984, along with the new M6.
I found a Leica catalog of that year 1984 were every thing is written.
kingjon
Established
Thank you all for your insightful answers and photographs. Looks like we'll be splitting the bottle.
Cheers
Jon
Cheers
Jon
Maxapple88
Established
I just recently got an M4-P from 1982. So is it brass or zinc? Does anyone have example images of the different windows?
cmogi10
Bodhisattva
Yours is Brass
Maxapple88
Established
cmogi10 said:
Does that mean that with lots of use it will start shining through? I know this from black paint models but not from the black chrome. Will it dent more easily aswell? Somehow that makes me happy, i'm not quite sure why though..
dpetrzelka
Well-known
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
The initial series of M4P's 1539xxx or something like that and up to 161xxxx were brass top plates (recessed windows). I had a couple of M4P's in the 1618xxx and they were brass and my M4P s' in te 1620xxx were zinc! There were some later M4P's with brass, but most were zinc die cast with flush windows. There is really no problem with either version. The zinc top plate does not "dissipate" hard knocks and can crack (very rare and you REALLY have to bang it or drive over it). The brass is a bit softer and would dent and in doing so absorb some of the momentum.
You really have to put a lot of film through a brass top M4P to show brass. The black chrome (ELOXAL) is very durable and when worn through, the nickel substrate shows up. Not until you worn through that will you see brass.
The last series of M4P were in 1987, chrome with single synch contacts at the back (X synch only). Some left over stock remained in the cataloque until 1988/89. Interestingly enough, the origianal pricing of the M6 was roughly what a M4P and a Leica MR Meter would cost.
Occasionally you will find earlier M4P's with zinc tops, but that usually meant that the top plate had been replaced after a mishap.
There were a few late M4P's and early M6's that had problem with the black chrome "bubbling" from a galvanic reation between the zinc and air (particularly salt laden sea side air). However. most of that problem was with the early R6, not the m's.
The baseplate was always brass. There was a Midland trial with cast zinc baseplates, but the thin flange and the "catch" for the lock could crack. I had a handful of these for testing in the mid 80's. but they never made production.
You really have to put a lot of film through a brass top M4P to show brass. The black chrome (ELOXAL) is very durable and when worn through, the nickel substrate shows up. Not until you worn through that will you see brass.
The last series of M4P were in 1987, chrome with single synch contacts at the back (X synch only). Some left over stock remained in the cataloque until 1988/89. Interestingly enough, the origianal pricing of the M6 was roughly what a M4P and a Leica MR Meter would cost.
Occasionally you will find earlier M4P's with zinc tops, but that usually meant that the top plate had been replaced after a mishap.
There were a few late M4P's and early M6's that had problem with the black chrome "bubbling" from a galvanic reation between the zinc and air (particularly salt laden sea side air). However. most of that problem was with the early R6, not the m's.
The baseplate was always brass. There was a Midland trial with cast zinc baseplates, but the thin flange and the "catch" for the lock could crack. I had a handful of these for testing in the mid 80's. but they never made production.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Tom,Tom A said:
Thanks very much for that. I thought that might have been the case, but it is so worn I was wondering.
I guess I'll have to pound it for another 25 years, then...
Cheers,
R.
JNewell
Leica M Recidivist
Tom A said:
I hesitate to offer a correction, but I think the reference was meant to be to the early R4, not R6.