Biggles
My cup runneth amok.
After a few years of running around with a CL, I'm convinced it's an awful body to use my V2 50mm Summilux on. That dense, heavy lens seriously unbalances the camera. I'm therefore thinking of buying a user-grade conventional M body so I can use that wonderful Summilux.
I have absolutely no desire to own a meterless body, though, so it's M6, M7, or MP, if I stick to Leica-made. Seriously looking at Zeiss Ikon, too, but...
I would be using it strictly with the 50mm focal length. I don't like the look of anything wider than 40, and I don't enjoy using telephotos on rangefinders. A camera optimised for 28mm or 35mm lenses would be wasted on me. I'm keeping my CLs to use my 40.
Degree of automation, type of meter readout, rewind, black vs silver...none of that matters to me. Price isn't much of a factor, either, as long as I stay in the user-grade used market. Rangefinder accuracy, though, does matter. If any of these three has an edge over the others as regards their rangefinders either being more stable, more precise, or just plain easier to focus, an f/1.4 lens wide-open would be my excuse for wanting to know. I do an awful lot of low-light stuff.
So, what's the knee-jerk answer for the ideal metered, 50mm Summilux rear cap for photographing black cats in coal cellars?
I have absolutely no desire to own a meterless body, though, so it's M6, M7, or MP, if I stick to Leica-made. Seriously looking at Zeiss Ikon, too, but...
I would be using it strictly with the 50mm focal length. I don't like the look of anything wider than 40, and I don't enjoy using telephotos on rangefinders. A camera optimised for 28mm or 35mm lenses would be wasted on me. I'm keeping my CLs to use my 40.
Degree of automation, type of meter readout, rewind, black vs silver...none of that matters to me. Price isn't much of a factor, either, as long as I stay in the user-grade used market. Rangefinder accuracy, though, does matter. If any of these three has an edge over the others as regards their rangefinders either being more stable, more precise, or just plain easier to focus, an f/1.4 lens wide-open would be my excuse for wanting to know. I do an awful lot of low-light stuff.
So, what's the knee-jerk answer for the ideal metered, 50mm Summilux rear cap for photographing black cats in coal cellars?
35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
The M6 & MP are very much similar cameras, with the MP having btter quality control. The M7 has the AE feature. Thus it comes down to a pretty fast AE camera, or a camera without the AE.
Ive had my M7 for 10 months and I love its ease of use. Switch it on, focus, shoot.
Ive had my M7 for 10 months and I love its ease of use. Switch it on, focus, shoot.
snausages
Well-known
Nothing but good experiences with my 0.72 M6ttl. I like the convenience of the large shutter dial, the meter read-out and that, if desired, it operates without batteries. My favorite lens is my V2 Lux 50 and I've never had trouble focusing it wide open on this camera.
Philip Whiteman
Well-known
You might consider the much-maligned Leica M5: plenty of meat to grab on to (without needing to buy a silly add-on grip of any kind); lovely, clear finder with metering area defined, shutter speed indication and none of that M4-2/M6 'flare blanking' of the rangefinder; superb M3-type 'hand built' quality (or better); and attractively low price ('cos everybody is so convinced the things are ugly).
Roger Hicks
Veteran
RF accuracy is a function of base length, so unless you get a 0,85, all the 0,72s are the same. The MP is newer (well, I suppose the M7 is too, but I like MPs more, and the M7 shutter speed dial goes in the wrong direction) and viewfinder flare hasn't been a problem (unlike my M4-P).
Personally, I'd go for an MP, but it ain't going to matter much. As for 'silly add-on grips', I've not felt the need for those either in 30+ years of using M2, M3, MP, M4-P, MP, M8, M8.2, M9. Nor have I felt the need to use a huge, overcomplicated M5 (and yes, I've handled them).
Cheers,
R.
Personally, I'd go for an MP, but it ain't going to matter much. As for 'silly add-on grips', I've not felt the need for those either in 30+ years of using M2, M3, MP, M4-P, MP, M8, M8.2, M9. Nor have I felt the need to use a huge, overcomplicated M5 (and yes, I've handled them).
Cheers,
R.
maddoc
... likes film again.
M5 or M6TTL.
"VF flare" is an internet over-exaggerated problem ...
"VF flare" is an internet over-exaggerated problem ...
Steve_F
Well-known
I've had my M6 TTL for 3 months and am absolutely smitten with it. I'd love an MP but can't afford one yet.
I was skeptical about the large dial on the top and decided I could live with it, then found when I was out in the snow, wearing gloves, it was perfect.
Steve.
I was skeptical about the large dial on the top and decided I could live with it, then found when I was out in the snow, wearing gloves, it was perfect.
Steve.
Biggles
My cup runneth amok.
First of all, thanks for not laughing at what may have seemed an obvious question. Secondly, these replies are exactly what I needed. I'm going to be walking past the local new & secondhand Leicamonger's shop this afternoon, and I'll stop in to paw at whatever he's got under glass. Knowing the differences aren't so great will be a big help in understanding what's sitting in my hand.
alun severn
Established
I would just add that as an M7 user week in, week out for several years now I think there are enough documented problems with the electronics of the camera to make me wonder how advisable buying a used one would be. Mine -- bought new -- has had the DX reaer replaced,a circuit board replaced, the viewfinder upgraded (free of charge by Leica) to the MP finder and now the electrics are playing up again.
If I was starting afresh, I'm not sure I would choose the M7. This isn't based on MP fetishism -- it's based on practical usage over several hundred rolls of film with the M7. It isn't a dreadful camera -- in fact it's a lovely camera -- but I think the electrics do give cause for concern and *may* affect reliability. Others' experience varies, I know, but this is my experience with the one I bought...
If I was starting afresh, I'm not sure I would choose the M7. This isn't based on MP fetishism -- it's based on practical usage over several hundred rolls of film with the M7. It isn't a dreadful camera -- in fact it's a lovely camera -- but I think the electrics do give cause for concern and *may* affect reliability. Others' experience varies, I know, but this is my experience with the one I bought...
thomasw_
Well-known
MP/M6 are great all round metered, mechanical bodies; the M7 and ZI offer aperture priority which makes them more dependent on electronics. This is a fact -- whether this matters to you, you can only know.
Between a MP/M6 the differences are cost, cosmetics and build-related. Will these matter to you?
Between the M7/MP the differences are cost, functional, cosmetic and about reliability. Again, not sure if these will matter to you.
Between a ZI/M7 the functional differences are in the ergonomics and some of the design aspects, the film loading and exposure locking etc. New, the ZI is less than half the cost of the M7. The M7 is built like a brick. Many users think the VF of the ZI is best VF in low light bar none; as well it is a great VF for 35/50 shooters as you get single bright lines with those lenses.
Between a MP/M6 the differences are cost, cosmetics and build-related. Will these matter to you?
Between the M7/MP the differences are cost, functional, cosmetic and about reliability. Again, not sure if these will matter to you.
Between a ZI/M7 the functional differences are in the ergonomics and some of the design aspects, the film loading and exposure locking etc. New, the ZI is less than half the cost of the M7. The M7 is built like a brick. Many users think the VF of the ZI is best VF in low light bar none; as well it is a great VF for 35/50 shooters as you get single bright lines with those lenses.
snausages
Well-known
When I'm occupied by the superficial, which is most of the time, I covet the LHSA black paint M6 ttl. I'd love to have a camera that brasses, marking your time spent together.
Biggles
My cup runneth amok.
I am a reliability freak. (Yes, even though I persist in owning CLs. It's only because they're so small.) Hadn't been aware of M7 electrowonk. Hadn't realised the Zeiss was aperture-priority, either; the only one I've ever handled (at B&H last week) had no battery in it.
I clearly need to do some reading.
I clearly need to do some reading.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
M5 or M6TTL.
"VF flare" is an internet over-exaggerated problem ...
Dear Gabor,
Not as far as I am concerned. There have been times when the M4-P was all but useless (spotlit folk musicians was the first time I noticed it) and I had to switch to an M2. Sure, for most subjects under most lighting, it's not a problem; but when it is a probem, it is. Much like IR sensitivity in an M8/M8.2 (and I've been there too).
Cheers,
R.
aizan
Veteran
i would look for a .85 m6 classic, though an m5 would be your lens's metered contemporary.
oldoc
oldoc
MP.
Hands down
Hands down
peter_n
Veteran
I used to use two M7s, now I use two MPs. Although I never had a problem with either of my M7s, I share Alun's concerns about the electrics as I'm a reliability freak too. I think if you shoot slides then the M7/ZI should be a real consideration as the M7 at least provides stepless exposures for a given aperture so provided you meter correctly you get very accurate exposures. If you don't need that then either an M6 or an MP would be great. I'd lean to the MP having used an M6TTL for three years and my MPs for a couple.
Given that you only want to use a 50mm my knee-jerk answer is actually an MP3. It has solitary 35, 50 and 90 framelines and the 50mm frameline is absolutely perfect in terms of its relative size with respect to the VF as a whole. I bought mine used a couple of years ago from my local dealer for roughly what he was charging for a 9+ MP. The MP3 had a big scratch on the back from someone's belt buckle but so what? I'm using it... If you are patient you may be able to pick up an MP3 body for a reasonable price.
Given that you only want to use a 50mm my knee-jerk answer is actually an MP3. It has solitary 35, 50 and 90 framelines and the 50mm frameline is absolutely perfect in terms of its relative size with respect to the VF as a whole. I bought mine used a couple of years ago from my local dealer for roughly what he was charging for a 9+ MP. The MP3 had a big scratch on the back from someone's belt buckle but so what? I'm using it... If you are patient you may be able to pick up an MP3 body for a reasonable price.
Ron (Netherlands)
Well-known
If the viewfinder is your most critical issue, go for the 0.85 so you get the most out of the baselength. I had one with that finder and it was best for shooting with < 1.5 lenses. Because 0.85 is more rare to find, you might pay a little more.
akiralx
Established
I have a 0.72 MP and a ZI. Both are great cameras, and the ZI does have the better viewfinder especially if you wear glasses as I do, and it probably is easier to focus in low light. The single 50 frameline would be nice for you as well - though the ZI VF superiority won't really be as evident at longer FLs.
The AE on the ZI is useful of course, and the EV function is great. The shutter speeds on the left of the ZI VF are OK to read but the LEDs on the MP (which are just >o< of course) are easier to see. But some might say that if you're using AE on the ZI you don't really need to see them at all...
Presumably if you think you'll only ever shoot 50mm or longer then a higher mag VF on a Leica would make sense if you can track one down.
Buildwise the ZI is very good (much better than a Bessa which I owned briefly) but the MP is in a class above, and a tactile joy to use. I find it easier to rewind with the MP's knob than the ZI's crank.
The AE on the ZI is useful of course, and the EV function is great. The shutter speeds on the left of the ZI VF are OK to read but the LEDs on the MP (which are just >o< of course) are easier to see. But some might say that if you're using AE on the ZI you don't really need to see them at all...
Presumably if you think you'll only ever shoot 50mm or longer then a higher mag VF on a Leica would make sense if you can track one down.
Buildwise the ZI is very good (much better than a Bessa which I owned briefly) but the MP is in a class above, and a tactile joy to use. I find it easier to rewind with the MP's knob than the ZI's crank.
M
mad_boy
Guest
One point not mentioned yet is light meter sensitivity.
Since you state you shoot a lot of low light this may be a consideration.
The M6TTL and M7 have a more sensitive meter than the M6 classic.
(by 2 ev if I am not mistaken).
My M7 has been fully reliable; My M6 TTL once failed mechanically....
Personally I am not afraid of unreliability of electronics. My first camera (Pentax suparA) is now 25 year old, and electronics have never been an issue (the mechanics have....)
Mad_boy
Since you state you shoot a lot of low light this may be a consideration.
The M6TTL and M7 have a more sensitive meter than the M6 classic.
(by 2 ev if I am not mistaken).
My M7 has been fully reliable; My M6 TTL once failed mechanically....
Personally I am not afraid of unreliability of electronics. My first camera (Pentax suparA) is now 25 year old, and electronics have never been an issue (the mechanics have....)
Mad_boy
marke
Well-known
How is the M6 TTL more automated than the M6? And how is the MP different from either one in automation? I've had an M6 TTL and now have an MP, and I've never known there to be a difference in automation between these two cameras. Build quality, yes...but not in automation. As far as I know, all three of these cameras are the same in this respect.