amateriat
We're all light!
As the resident Hexar freak, I guess I'm the iconoclast of the bunch here.
Besides my pair of Hexar RFs, I have a Leica M2. The meterless M2 is just wonderful, but I think the fact that those seriously-automated Hexen are within arm's reach makes not having a meter in the M2 a non-issue. Otherwise, assuming I could get hold of a reliable copy, I'd go straight to an M7. Yes, it's battery-dependent, but carrying spares is hardly a bother, is it? (Besides having been reliable for the better part of a decade I've owned them, my Hexars can run about a hundred rolls or so on a single set of CR2s). I also get a shutter with dead-on accuracy at all speeds, with no need for periodic service-tweaking. If I couldn't find a reliable M7 for some reason, there's the ZI, which I've used, and is a great camera.
'Course, if I could have my choice of Leica, it's a no-brainer: a black-paint MP3. But the Hexars stay in the picture, understand?
- Barrett
Besides my pair of Hexar RFs, I have a Leica M2. The meterless M2 is just wonderful, but I think the fact that those seriously-automated Hexen are within arm's reach makes not having a meter in the M2 a non-issue. Otherwise, assuming I could get hold of a reliable copy, I'd go straight to an M7. Yes, it's battery-dependent, but carrying spares is hardly a bother, is it? (Besides having been reliable for the better part of a decade I've owned them, my Hexars can run about a hundred rolls or so on a single set of CR2s). I also get a shutter with dead-on accuracy at all speeds, with no need for periodic service-tweaking. If I couldn't find a reliable M7 for some reason, there's the ZI, which I've used, and is a great camera.
'Course, if I could have my choice of Leica, it's a no-brainer: a black-paint MP3. But the Hexars stay in the picture, understand?
- Barrett
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Biggles
My cup runneth amok.
Thanks for the continued, and interesting, input. A quick update:
Hit three shops today. NO used metered Leica bodies in the used cases. None. Quite a few M2s, M3s, and M4s, and a new-in-box M7 priced out of my range, at the last place. No new MPs to examine, either. BUT, to my surprise, the best of the shops did slap a new Zeiss Ikon into my palm, and they permitted me to put my Summilux on it to see how it balanced.
The ZI finder and frameline are both wonderful. I find myself wanting this camera for its light weight and wonderfully bright finder, all else aside. Stupid thing feels too light, though, for that ingot of a Summilux. Way nose-heavy.
Do I need to get past that?
Hit three shops today. NO used metered Leica bodies in the used cases. None. Quite a few M2s, M3s, and M4s, and a new-in-box M7 priced out of my range, at the last place. No new MPs to examine, either. BUT, to my surprise, the best of the shops did slap a new Zeiss Ikon into my palm, and they permitted me to put my Summilux on it to see how it balanced.
The ZI finder and frameline are both wonderful. I find myself wanting this camera for its light weight and wonderfully bright finder, all else aside. Stupid thing feels too light, though, for that ingot of a Summilux. Way nose-heavy.
Do I need to get past that?
maddoc
... likes film again.
Dear Roger,
I had all of them (M Leica cameras) and the only one model not having had the problem with VF flare was the M3 (different RF design). My former M2, M4 (two), M5, MP had all the problem with RF patch flare, to a more or lesser extent. I very much agree that it can be a real PITA when it happens but also figured out that a small tilt of the camera or repositioning your eye easily helps against RF patch flare. My M7 with MP VF flares less often than my M4-P but the 90mm FL (M7) are hardly visible in low light, horses for courses ...
M8/M8.2 IR sensitivity, that is a REAL problem in my book (and prevents me from buying one because I would need to get at least 4 different sized hotmirror filter for my lenses...)
Cheers,
Gabor
I had all of them (M Leica cameras) and the only one model not having had the problem with VF flare was the M3 (different RF design). My former M2, M4 (two), M5, MP had all the problem with RF patch flare, to a more or lesser extent. I very much agree that it can be a real PITA when it happens but also figured out that a small tilt of the camera or repositioning your eye easily helps against RF patch flare. My M7 with MP VF flares less often than my M4-P but the 90mm FL (M7) are hardly visible in low light, horses for courses ...
M8/M8.2 IR sensitivity, that is a REAL problem in my book (and prevents me from buying one because I would need to get at least 4 different sized hotmirror filter for my lenses...)
Cheers,
Gabor
BillBingham2
Registered User
I don't think so. You have to be happy with the camera. IMHO, if it is not balanced/sized/whatever the way you want to work you will focus on the camera too much and not enough about taking pictures.
My recommendation would be to look up an M5 or an MP3 (New MP with M3 style finder). The M5 has some unique handling characteristics that some folks LOVE, others not so much. As you have the CL, you might really like the M5.
I'm not a big fan of in camera meters but have to admit they really do come in handy. I think I've adjusted to working without them as the camera I love does not have them (Nikon S3-2000). I had and love an M6 classic for years.
Do not rush, take you time. There are lots of great deals here on the classifieds. I would strongly recommend checking with Tony at PopFlash to see what he has. Any members near you have an M5 you could meet up for coffee or lunch?
B2 (;->
My recommendation would be to look up an M5 or an MP3 (New MP with M3 style finder). The M5 has some unique handling characteristics that some folks LOVE, others not so much. As you have the CL, you might really like the M5.
I'm not a big fan of in camera meters but have to admit they really do come in handy. I think I've adjusted to working without them as the camera I love does not have them (Nikon S3-2000). I had and love an M6 classic for years.
Do not rush, take you time. There are lots of great deals here on the classifieds. I would strongly recommend checking with Tony at PopFlash to see what he has. Any members near you have an M5 you could meet up for coffee or lunch?
B2 (;->
marke
Well-known
I have a "new" MP and an M3, but I'm not sure what you mean by this.
amateriat
We're all light!
Marke: He means this:
(From Photo.net)
- Barrett
(From Photo.net)
- Barrett
WalterM
Established
My vote is for an MP with a .85x finder, unless you need the M7's AE.
It's my only body. My only lens is a 50mm summicron, but i might venture into the wide-angled leica world soon
It's my only body. My only lens is a 50mm summicron, but i might venture into the wide-angled leica world soon
Debusti Paolo
Well-known
m6 i suggest you
Austerby
Well-known
As another alternative to consider, there's always the Voigtlander R3M - a mechanical camera with in-built lightmeter and a 1:1 viewfinder that would definitely meet your needs for a 50mm shooter.
It's not built like a Leica but it's a very fine camera in its own right, and there's also the R3A version with an electronic shutter and AE. Have a look at Cameraquest.com for details.
It's not built like a Leica but it's a very fine camera in its own right, and there's also the R3A version with an electronic shutter and AE. Have a look at Cameraquest.com for details.
Richard G
Veteran
I think this is right.
peter_n
Veteran
That's an M3.
An MP3 is a gussied up MP with some elements of the M3, for example the bevels around the front windows, and some of the M2 like the frame counter. Most important for the OP, it has solitary framelines and especially a meter. They are difficult to find as they were a limited edition issue by Leica.
marke
Well-known
Thanks for clearing that up for me, Peter. I think I've seen one of these before, but I suppose it's rarity made me forget. That camera makes me drool. I like everything about it except the M2 frame counter. And the price too, I'm sure.
That's an M3.
An MP3 is a gussied up MP with some elements of the M3, for example the bevels around the front windows, and some of the M2 like the frame counter. Most important for the OP, it has solitary framelines and especially a meter. They are difficult to find as they were a limited edition issue by Leica.
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ferider
Veteran
Get an M6. Maybe a viewfinder upgrade.
Spend the difference to M7 or MP on lenses, travel, or a second body, for example an M3 (truly optimized for 50mm).
Between MP and M6 there is difference in built, but not in reliability or Q&A. The M6 zinc top is actually harder than the MP brass piece. Etc.
Spend the difference to M7 or MP on lenses, travel, or a second body, for example an M3 (truly optimized for 50mm).
Between MP and M6 there is difference in built, but not in reliability or Q&A. The M6 zinc top is actually harder than the MP brass piece. Etc.
mfogiel
Veteran
I have the ZI and Leicas with the 0.58, 0.74 and 0.85 VF's. While the ZI has the best VF of them all, however I find the 50mm frame to be a little sacrificed. My 50mm body is an M7 with the .085x magnification, and the 75mm frame removed. So my advice for the ideal 50mm camera would be either that (0.85x M7 or M6 without the 75mm frame), or an a la carte 0.85x MP with the single 50mm frame, or as suggested, the esoteric MP3.
ferider
Veteran
One more comment:
These days, I mostly use my M6 when I need a 35. And classic bodies (M2, M3, M4P) when I use 50mm. The older cameras have larger 50mm framelines, as shown below:
And this is the negative taken of the same scene with an 50mm Elmar-M:
M6, M7 and MP 50mm framelines are all the same.
Makes a difference to me. Note that the ZI 50mm framelines are even smaller.
If 50 is really your goto lens, I recommend to re-think the meter thing. External meters are very useful, often easier to use than internal ones, IMO. And the M3 for 50 is truly unique.
Roland.
These days, I mostly use my M6 when I need a 35. And classic bodies (M2, M3, M4P) when I use 50mm. The older cameras have larger 50mm framelines, as shown below:
And this is the negative taken of the same scene with an 50mm Elmar-M:
M6, M7 and MP 50mm framelines are all the same.
Makes a difference to me. Note that the ZI 50mm framelines are even smaller.
If 50 is really your goto lens, I recommend to re-think the meter thing. External meters are very useful, often easier to use than internal ones, IMO. And the M3 for 50 is truly unique.
Roland.
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wjlapier
Well-known
If I could have my M3's RFer in my MP, that would be the perfect camera for me--maybe you too. I'm a 50 shooter most of the time. Hmm...Any of you gurus know if the M3 RFer could replace the MP Rfer without a problem?
MCTuomey
Veteran
if you want a metered M and budget is important, the M6 classic (non-ttl) would be my choice. if budget isn't so important, then the MP would be my choice. if you're going to shoot frequently in situations where speed is important and conditions affecting exposure will be changing rapidly, and you can go $1800-2000, then the M7 would be my choice.
i'm a practical shooter. i've had three M7's without any electronic problems. all of the metered cameras contain electronic components, all may develop electronic problems in use (or mechanical for that matter), anything you read here is anecdotal with respect to model reliability, so weigh it accordingly. my view would be buy the one that fits your needs. don't sweat reliability. leica reliability is fine compared to the alternative mfgrs. if you're unlucky and something fails, you simply get it fixed. there are lots of techs around as well. shoot long enough and stuff needs maintenance, will break, etc.
roland's point about the finder upgrade is a good one, i think. i had the MP upgrades on an M6 and two M7s and thought it was worth it.
good luck with your choice. get your foot in the water - you will have a personal basis for further decision-making. who knows? you may buy one, use it, and realize you need something else, and then sell/buy at that point. it's very personal in the end.
i recently sold a black MP replacing it with an M7. the M7 is the faster shooter for me, which i need, so while i miss the feel of the MP (it's best attribute imho), i'm happy with the trade-off.
i'm a practical shooter. i've had three M7's without any electronic problems. all of the metered cameras contain electronic components, all may develop electronic problems in use (or mechanical for that matter), anything you read here is anecdotal with respect to model reliability, so weigh it accordingly. my view would be buy the one that fits your needs. don't sweat reliability. leica reliability is fine compared to the alternative mfgrs. if you're unlucky and something fails, you simply get it fixed. there are lots of techs around as well. shoot long enough and stuff needs maintenance, will break, etc.
roland's point about the finder upgrade is a good one, i think. i had the MP upgrades on an M6 and two M7s and thought it was worth it.
good luck with your choice. get your foot in the water - you will have a personal basis for further decision-making. who knows? you may buy one, use it, and realize you need something else, and then sell/buy at that point. it's very personal in the end.
i recently sold a black MP replacing it with an M7. the M7 is the faster shooter for me, which i need, so while i miss the feel of the MP (it's best attribute imho), i'm happy with the trade-off.
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Benjamin
Registered Snoozer
First things first, go to a shop that keeps .85 body of any type and see if you like it over the standard .72. The longer effective base length of the .85 is going to be more accurate wide open with your Summilux, though I have yet to find the standard mag to be a problem. Then again, I don't own an F/1.0 Noctilux...
Personally, I use 50mm a lot (with a standard .72 M2) and I was convinced that I needed to trade in my Leica for an M3 or an .85 mag' body. I tried a magnifier, which was good, but it stuck out and started to get on my nerves.
After a while, I just got used to what I had to work with and love the 50mm frames of the M2.
If I were you, and I had the money to spend, I'd get a standard .72, or even .85 if you prefer, MP and have the the unused framelines removed. 50/75 brightlines would do my head in, which I was I never went for an M6.
Best of luck in whatever you decide to do anyway, there's some good advice in this thread.
P.S, If you really do only shoot 50mm, go out and try the M3 as well. Quite a camera with a 50 if you can find a nice one. If you decide to take that route, take a peak at the Gossen Digisix or Digiflash, and the Voigtlander VCII meters' whilst your at it. Still makes for a compact kit.
Personally, I use 50mm a lot (with a standard .72 M2) and I was convinced that I needed to trade in my Leica for an M3 or an .85 mag' body. I tried a magnifier, which was good, but it stuck out and started to get on my nerves.
After a while, I just got used to what I had to work with and love the 50mm frames of the M2.
If I were you, and I had the money to spend, I'd get a standard .72, or even .85 if you prefer, MP and have the the unused framelines removed. 50/75 brightlines would do my head in, which I was I never went for an M6.
Best of luck in whatever you decide to do anyway, there's some good advice in this thread.
P.S, If you really do only shoot 50mm, go out and try the M3 as well. Quite a camera with a 50 if you can find a nice one. If you decide to take that route, take a peak at the Gossen Digisix or Digiflash, and the Voigtlander VCII meters' whilst your at it. Still makes for a compact kit.
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maddoc
... likes film again.
That sums it up very well. I have owned and used a lot of Leica M cameras ... M2, M3 (one with M2 VF) 3x, M4 2x, M4-P 2x, M5, M6 (classic) 2x, M6TTL 0.85x, MP, M7 and now settled to the M4-P (after foolishly selling my first M4-P I immediately bought a second ...) and M7. For me the M4-P + M7 make an ideal combination since I either use a hand-held meter (M4-P) or don`t want to bother with a meter at all (M7).
I have owned and used a lot of Leica M cameras ... M2, M3 (one with M2 VF) 3x, M4 2x, M4-P 2x, M5, M6 (classic) 2x, M6TTL 0.85x, MP, M7 and now settled to the M4-P (after foolishly selling my first M4-P I immediately bought a second ...) and M7. For me the M4-P + M7 make an ideal combination since I either use a hand-held meter (M4-P) or don`t want to bother with a meter at all (M7).
Biggles
My cup runneth amok.
You people are *really* coming through with good insights. Thanks again.
Regarding the suggestions to go meterless- ain't gonna happen. I started in photography with a meterless rangefinder and a handheld selenium meter. Still have three working meters of the type. I've simply evolved into a creature that loathes having to take its eye out of the viewfinder. And I need that little needle or diode telling me which way to turn the ratchet. Hell, I can't even manage to memorise Sunny 16.
As for the camera/finder question, does sound like my inner gearhead would be happiest with a tricked-out MP. While I don't have a moral problem splashing out that kind of coin on a camera, it's not something I'm going to do on a whim. I'm going to persist in trying to lay hands on one, first.
They'd better stop waving those Zeiss Ikons at me, though. The b******s.
Regarding the suggestions to go meterless- ain't gonna happen. I started in photography with a meterless rangefinder and a handheld selenium meter. Still have three working meters of the type. I've simply evolved into a creature that loathes having to take its eye out of the viewfinder. And I need that little needle or diode telling me which way to turn the ratchet. Hell, I can't even manage to memorise Sunny 16.
As for the camera/finder question, does sound like my inner gearhead would be happiest with a tricked-out MP. While I don't have a moral problem splashing out that kind of coin on a camera, it's not something I'm going to do on a whim. I'm going to persist in trying to lay hands on one, first.
They'd better stop waving those Zeiss Ikons at me, though. The b******s.