stormbytes
Member
So I just unboxed my eagerly-anticipated Leica M6-Ttl. It certainly is a nice camera, heavier then I remembered. Inspecting the camera's condition and functions, I made some peculiar observations and seeing as I have no experience at all with Leicas, I thought I'd put the matter to the floor. I don't have the lens yet (summicron 50/2) so there will be no picture taking today.
Shutter Sounds
*Shutter Speed Dial is on the tight-side of smooth overall, and harder to turn between the 1/30 - 1/60s (at the '1/45s' position) after the shutter's been depressed (uncocked)
I take great pleasure in handling/using fine mechanical pieces in pristine condition. The camera was represented as "Mint" condition with "10 rolls put through it", and I paid a hefty premium for this. When I inspected the camera, I found a few tiny paint bubbles around where your 'right thumb' would rest, and also some minuscule scuff marks in one spot on the bottom (film) cover (is that what its called?). Normally, these nuances would be relegated to one's own feelings on the matter, and if this were a Nikon I could easily gauge the severity of the deviation from described to actual condition. But again, I have no experience with Leica; this camera has been discontinued for many years with nothing close to Nikon's distribution. I'd like to judge things fairly and in proper context.
I've looked around quite a bit and found the average price of an M6 (in 8+ condition) to be roughly $1500. For those who would ask - I paid $1,800.00 for the body, mainly for its stated new-ness and cosmetic shape.
I'd love to hear what you guys think so I can make a well balanced decision on seller feedback and if I should keep the camera.
-
Daniel
Shutter Sounds
1s to 1/8th = Shutter opens; you hear the spring 'timer' unwinding; the shutter closes; you hear the spring 'relaxing' all to the end. (my Nikon FM3a has no spring 'aftersounds')
1/5th & 1/30= Same as above **only after the shutter closes you hear this 2-3 'bouncy-tock' rattling sound.
*Shutter Speed Dial is on the tight-side of smooth overall, and harder to turn between the 1/30 - 1/60s (at the '1/45s' position) after the shutter's been depressed (uncocked)
I take great pleasure in handling/using fine mechanical pieces in pristine condition. The camera was represented as "Mint" condition with "10 rolls put through it", and I paid a hefty premium for this. When I inspected the camera, I found a few tiny paint bubbles around where your 'right thumb' would rest, and also some minuscule scuff marks in one spot on the bottom (film) cover (is that what its called?). Normally, these nuances would be relegated to one's own feelings on the matter, and if this were a Nikon I could easily gauge the severity of the deviation from described to actual condition. But again, I have no experience with Leica; this camera has been discontinued for many years with nothing close to Nikon's distribution. I'd like to judge things fairly and in proper context.
I've looked around quite a bit and found the average price of an M6 (in 8+ condition) to be roughly $1500. For those who would ask - I paid $1,800.00 for the body, mainly for its stated new-ness and cosmetic shape.
I'd love to hear what you guys think so I can make a well balanced decision on seller feedback and if I should keep the camera.
-
Daniel
21-135 Apo All Good
Established
Everything sounds fine to me. The shutter sounds the same on my (4) M6ttl's and the speed dial is set at 1/50 sec. which is max. sync. speed for electronic flash (without special strobe & adapter). There is NO 1/45th sec. and the dial is a little harder to turn when set to X sync. speed so it doesn't get knocked out of sync. by accident when going in & out of a bag for instance.
Surface "bubbles" in the finish on the top plate are sometimes seen. The bodies come from the factory that way, not through being handled or mishandled in any way. Seller should have told you about them.
$1,800 seems to be the going rate for a body with only 10 rolls of film put through it, so it sounds like a good deal. A picture of the body would help us to allay your fears.
I'd keep it and take some photos with it to make sure it works before I'd bitch or send it back.
Dave
Surface "bubbles" in the finish on the top plate are sometimes seen. The bodies come from the factory that way, not through being handled or mishandled in any way. Seller should have told you about them.
$1,800 seems to be the going rate for a body with only 10 rolls of film put through it, so it sounds like a good deal. A picture of the body would help us to allay your fears.
I'd keep it and take some photos with it to make sure it works before I'd bitch or send it back.
Dave
2lookdown
Newbie
I also have M6 TTL. Your shutter sound is definitely ok.
1800 is a very good price for mint M6 TTL.
1800 is a very good price for mint M6 TTL.
haempe
Well-known
A little "afterrun" between 1s and 1/30s is normal for Leicas.
The last tension of the spring is not used for timing, not precise enough.
Benjamin Marks
Veteran
The sound you are hearing is the slow speed escapement. You can think of this like two gear trains in the camera, one for speeds 1/60th and faster and one for speeds 1/30th and slower. It sounds like this on many mechanical cameras, including the venerable Pentax K1000 (and my M6, M6 TTL etc.). Enjoy it! It is a great camera.
Can't speak to the surface imperfections. I buy a lot of used cameras and don't get too upset about purely cosmetic issues. Why don't you shoot a test-roll and see how the pix look?
Ben Marks
Can't speak to the surface imperfections. I buy a lot of used cameras and don't get too upset about purely cosmetic issues. Why don't you shoot a test-roll and see how the pix look?
Ben Marks
stormbytes
Member
Thanks everyone for such quick and detailed replies, and 21-135 Apo All Good for the comparisons to no less then (4) bodies!
I been playing with the M6 for about an hour or so, testing out the speeds and acclimating my hands to the feel of it. I even placed a call to Don Goldberg of DAG Camera who too echoed your sentiments about the camera's sound functioning. I'm beginning to realize that Leica is an "acquired taste", and that going backwards is difficult. I always felt my Nikon FM3a was a superb machine (and still do), but the sound of its mirror slamming against the dampener is now-deafening, and the resulting vibration clearly palpable. I wonder if this in part is Leica's (and RF) secret to sharper images? I'll soon find out.
I'm very glad I posted this thread to the forum. I was navigating by 'feel' and now I feel I can base myself on the suggestions of those with real life experience.
I been playing with the M6 for about an hour or so, testing out the speeds and acclimating my hands to the feel of it. I even placed a call to Don Goldberg of DAG Camera who too echoed your sentiments about the camera's sound functioning. I'm beginning to realize that Leica is an "acquired taste", and that going backwards is difficult. I always felt my Nikon FM3a was a superb machine (and still do), but the sound of its mirror slamming against the dampener is now-deafening, and the resulting vibration clearly palpable. I wonder if this in part is Leica's (and RF) secret to sharper images? I'll soon find out.
I'm very glad I posted this thread to the forum. I was navigating by 'feel' and now I feel I can base myself on the suggestions of those with real life experience.
stormbytes
Member
I was wondering why there's no post-fire recoil on my FM3a, it too being a mechanical camera (albeit with AE).
Haempe mentioned "The last tension of the spring is not used for timing, not precise enough."
- could this be why there's no post-fire recoil on the FM3a, with Nikon using the full range of spring tension?
SolaresLarrave
My M5s need red dots!
I recall having spent an afternoon playing about with my first Leica (which happened to be an M6TTL in silver chrome).
One caveat: learn how to load film. Just take a roll to spare and practice, practice and practice. It's the only frustrating thing about the Leica design. Oddly enough, it works well if you do what the instructions tell you, but still, practice how to do it. The key: make sure the sprocket next to the film spool engages the film holes. The spool does not pull the film, the sprocket wheel pushes the film in, and helps the spool grab and pull the film. Look into the camera and you'll understand.
Take care and congratulations on the camera!
One caveat: learn how to load film. Just take a roll to spare and practice, practice and practice. It's the only frustrating thing about the Leica design. Oddly enough, it works well if you do what the instructions tell you, but still, practice how to do it. The key: make sure the sprocket next to the film spool engages the film holes. The spool does not pull the film, the sprocket wheel pushes the film in, and helps the spool grab and pull the film. Look into the camera and you'll understand.
Take care and congratulations on the camera!
N.delaRua
Well-known
I found getting my M6 TTL underwhelming. There just isn't much to fiddle with. A shutter button, advance lever, shutter speed dial, and ISO dial. Thats its. I think your brain starts to try to convince yourself that something is wrong when there is so little to occupy yourself with.
All Leicas sound funny relative to SLRs. The old screwmounts sound even funnier. Slow speeds sound like there is something loose inside the body dangling around. There isn't.
Have fun and put lots of film through it.
All Leicas sound funny relative to SLRs. The old screwmounts sound even funnier. Slow speeds sound like there is something loose inside the body dangling around. There isn't.
Have fun and put lots of film through it.
stormbytes
Member
Remarkably well put! And yes, that echoed my sentiments nicely. It was 'underwhelming' and sounded like there was any echo inside the box every time i tripped the shutter. Also, when accustomed to the clanking sound of a mirror flipping upwards, you're left with a feeling of.... Is that it??
Heh.. Like I said in a previous post - its' an acquired taste, but once bitten....
sepiareverb
genius and moron
Very different shutter in an FM3A. Horizontal travel if I recall correctly, and metal blades not curtains. I've got an old Mamiya 1000TL that sounds more like an M6 if one can ignore the KER-FLOP of the mirror.
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
I concur, the shutter sound is normal. I have 7 Leica M film bodies, and the only one that doesn't sound that way is my M7, which has no mechanical timing. At 1/15 and 1/30 there should be a "tick-tick" sound at the end.
One owner of a recently acquired M6 wrote that he named his camera "Bubbles" because of, well, it had paint bubbles. It is a not infrequent complaint.
One owner of a recently acquired M6 wrote that he named his camera "Bubbles" because of, well, it had paint bubbles. It is a not infrequent complaint.
stormbytes
Member
Picture is worth a thousand words - this might help a little
ray*j*gun
Veteran
There is zero comparison between an SLR and a RF body. I have an FM3a and an M2 and they are both superb cameras. I applaud your effort to learn the new format but it is very much a new format coming from a 35 SLR. Try using a medium format SLR if you want mirror slap that will give you wip lash.
21-135 Apo All Good
Established
Is that dust on the camera body or in a scanned image? Hard for me to tell.
Body looks like it's in great shape. I don't see any bubbles on the top plate. Picture isn't close enough and/or angle of light isn't oblique enough to show bubbles.
All-in-all it looks like you got your $1,800.00 dollars worth. Remember a new M-7 (which dies without the battery) or new MP (with the ancient rewind) is ONLY $5K for just the body! All any of them do is hold the film flat, just like it says in my signature line! Take that left-over $3,200.00 and buy a nice Leica lens or two!
Enjoy!
Dave
Body looks like it's in great shape. I don't see any bubbles on the top plate. Picture isn't close enough and/or angle of light isn't oblique enough to show bubbles.
All-in-all it looks like you got your $1,800.00 dollars worth. Remember a new M-7 (which dies without the battery) or new MP (with the ancient rewind) is ONLY $5K for just the body! All any of them do is hold the film flat, just like it says in my signature line! Take that left-over $3,200.00 and buy a nice Leica lens or two!
Enjoy!
Dave
seakayaker1
Well-known
The camera looks pretty minty from the photos.
You stated that the average price for a M6 was $1500.00, was that for the TTL model or the classic?
Most of the Excellent++ to -LN condition M6TTL models that I have seen appear to run between 1800.00 to 2100.00, and I would not mind picking up another along the way but a second would be a luxury and would have to be real deal for me to pull the trigger.
I think you will be quite happy with the M6 TTL once you have had a chance to put a few rolls of film through the camera.
Good Luck.
You stated that the average price for a M6 was $1500.00, was that for the TTL model or the classic?
Most of the Excellent++ to -LN condition M6TTL models that I have seen appear to run between 1800.00 to 2100.00, and I would not mind picking up another along the way but a second would be a luxury and would have to be real deal for me to pull the trigger.
I think you will be quite happy with the M6 TTL once you have had a chance to put a few rolls of film through the camera.
Good Luck.
Benjamin Marks
Veteran
Sweet! IN answer to your question above, I don't know a thing about how Nikon tensions their springs. Sherry Krauter, the doyenne of the Lieca fix-it world, claims that the M series cameras springs are so under tensioned, that they will never wear out. I have had shutter curtains replaced, but never the main springs. Now get thee forth and take some pictures!
Ben
Ben
Chuck Albertson
Well-known
It took me about a year to really get comfortable shooting a RF, but I'm kind of slow and anyway that was 20 years ago. Second Francisco's suggestion to practice film loading--it trips up every Leica user. Once you get get used to just dropping the film in like it shows on the botom of the camera and replacing the bottom plate, you'll find you can get 38 or 39 frames out of a standard 36-exposure roll.
Pete B
Well-known
Some M6s utilised a cheap zinc top plate that degraded and bubbled. When the problem arose, Leica resourced its metal. I don't think this problem will have made it to the TTL version but I'm just putting it out there for your consideration.
Pete
Pete
21-135 Apo All Good
Established
That's one of the reasons why these tanks hold up so well to 3 FPS motor drive operation! Or 2-3 FPS with my Leicavits
. Once you get used to them, you don't want to have to use another camera. Instead Leica RF Shooters tend to make their limitations an ASSET!Dave