Beemermark
Veteran
I agree, I have an M4 and M7 (and have had the M6). I have to look at each camera to tell you which way it rotates (can't tell from memory). The M7 & M6TTL rotate in the direction that the metering diodes point. Very intuitive. It doesn't matter which way the M4 dial rotates, you have to look to set it. You bracket with the aperature, not the shutter speed.I dont get it why speed dial rotation direction is mentioned so often here in forum, not just this thread. but thats just me
The other never ending thread is that you can't do a proper job of metering with the M7 & AE. The M7 meters the exact same way as the M6. The only difference is in AE mode the M7 is more accurate because the shutter speeds are step less. How you interpret what the meter sees is the same in both cameras.
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Steve Bellayr
Veteran
The quality of the image produced by all three cameras is primarily dependent upon the lens. I would save the extra expense and go with the M6 Classic is excellent or excellent + condition and use the money for the lenses. Set the camera on 'B' when not in use & it turns off the battery. Keep an extra battery in your bag...which is always advisable with any camera theat takes a battery.
PentHassyKon
Established
I won't dispute the difficulty portion for the future but at the moment Sherry still does them.I'm talking about repair cost/difficulty AFTER you get one. For example CL's meter cell availability is very limited it will be even harder in the future. Sherry and only a few others can do real good service on it. I think with M6, you'll lose less money in the long run. And I still think the limitation of lenses you can use due to meter arm isn't ideal as one and only (and first) M body. And often times, if you like CL, you'll wanna get an M anyway.
My 50 'cron collapsible is ok on my CL and doesn't appear to hit the meter stalk. I haven't tried my collapsible Industar (elmar clone) though.
One thing I definitely agree with you though - I'm definitely lusting for an M2/3/4/6 after using my CL.
Harry Lime
Practitioner
I have an M6ttl and the M7.
M6
Basically a M6ttl without TTL flash metering and a smaller shutter speed dial that rotates in the opposite (traditional) direction (IMO no big deal). The finder will occasionally flare, but can be upgraded for little money.
Great camera, 20 years in production, what more can you say? Get the viewfinder / RF flare fixed and you have a winner.
M6ttl
Plus:
- The only mechanical M with full TTL flash metering. This is a pretty big deal if you use a flash.
- Slightly more sensitive meter (vs M6), but I have never heard of anyone noticing a difference.
- Reliable as a brick.
- Only the meter needs batteries. This xmas I was shooting for hours in -20C weather.
The batteries for the meter died, but the camera just kept on going. These are the same type batteries that power the M7. No batteries = almost dead M7 camera.
- Relatively cheap in the used market
- Will probably outlive the owner.
Minus:
- The finder will flare under certain circumstances (bright light at 1:00 o'clock). The .85 versions are the worst. You can have this fixed for $150-200 by Leica or a reputable repair shop. But regardless people did make pictures with these for 20 years...
- No on/off switch. You need to rotate the shutter speed dial to 'off' to prevent the battery from accidentally being drained.
- The black anodized finish can be thin and look like steelwool with age...
- Very high build quality, but not quite as polished as an MP.
M7
Plus:
- AE. Sometimes this a god sent for snapshots taken on the run. But I mostly use mine in manual mode.
- Quieter shutter (compared to mechanical M)
- All but the very earliest M7 bodies have the 'flare fix' to the RF unit / viewfinder and coated finder windows. The M7 also uses the improved RF unit from the MP, resulting in slightly higher contrast framelines and focus patch.
- Improved fit and finish and as reliable as a brick.
- 50 - 70 rolls per battery set. Keep a spare set taped to the strap.
- DX reader
- Exposure compensation dial
- TTL flash metering. Aside from the M6ttl this is the only analog M with this feature.
Minus
- Shutter depends on batteries, except for 1/60th and 1/125th. Tape a set of spares to the strap.
- Early models have a tiny gap around the eyepiece, which may cause a minimal amount of dust to enter the viewfinder. It's a trivial problem and can be ignored. You don't see the dust, when you actually look through the viewfinder. Some people have smeared some silicone around the viewfinder or sent it to Leica for service. Again, it's a trivial problem.
I've had my M6ttl now for about 12 years. It's not as pretty as an MP, but has never failed me and I carry it with me every day. TTL flash support is a huge help, when you do have to use a flash and the M6ttl is the only mechanical M to offer this feature.
I simply love the fact that I don't have to rely on batteries, for the camera to take pictures. Batteries always seem to run out at the wrong moment and are susceptible to the cold. AE can be a 'picture saver', but I can live without it.
So, for me the choice is the M6ttl. Get the flare fix for the viewfinder and you will have a companion for life.
M6
Basically a M6ttl without TTL flash metering and a smaller shutter speed dial that rotates in the opposite (traditional) direction (IMO no big deal). The finder will occasionally flare, but can be upgraded for little money.
Great camera, 20 years in production, what more can you say? Get the viewfinder / RF flare fixed and you have a winner.
M6ttl
Plus:
- The only mechanical M with full TTL flash metering. This is a pretty big deal if you use a flash.
- Slightly more sensitive meter (vs M6), but I have never heard of anyone noticing a difference.
- Reliable as a brick.
- Only the meter needs batteries. This xmas I was shooting for hours in -20C weather.
The batteries for the meter died, but the camera just kept on going. These are the same type batteries that power the M7. No batteries = almost dead M7 camera.
- Relatively cheap in the used market
- Will probably outlive the owner.
Minus:
- The finder will flare under certain circumstances (bright light at 1:00 o'clock). The .85 versions are the worst. You can have this fixed for $150-200 by Leica or a reputable repair shop. But regardless people did make pictures with these for 20 years...
- No on/off switch. You need to rotate the shutter speed dial to 'off' to prevent the battery from accidentally being drained.
- The black anodized finish can be thin and look like steelwool with age...
- Very high build quality, but not quite as polished as an MP.
M7
Plus:
- AE. Sometimes this a god sent for snapshots taken on the run. But I mostly use mine in manual mode.
- Quieter shutter (compared to mechanical M)
- All but the very earliest M7 bodies have the 'flare fix' to the RF unit / viewfinder and coated finder windows. The M7 also uses the improved RF unit from the MP, resulting in slightly higher contrast framelines and focus patch.
- Improved fit and finish and as reliable as a brick.
- 50 - 70 rolls per battery set. Keep a spare set taped to the strap.
- DX reader
- Exposure compensation dial
- TTL flash metering. Aside from the M6ttl this is the only analog M with this feature.
Minus
- Shutter depends on batteries, except for 1/60th and 1/125th. Tape a set of spares to the strap.
- Early models have a tiny gap around the eyepiece, which may cause a minimal amount of dust to enter the viewfinder. It's a trivial problem and can be ignored. You don't see the dust, when you actually look through the viewfinder. Some people have smeared some silicone around the viewfinder or sent it to Leica for service. Again, it's a trivial problem.
I've had my M6ttl now for about 12 years. It's not as pretty as an MP, but has never failed me and I carry it with me every day. TTL flash support is a huge help, when you do have to use a flash and the M6ttl is the only mechanical M to offer this feature.
I simply love the fact that I don't have to rely on batteries, for the camera to take pictures. Batteries always seem to run out at the wrong moment and are susceptible to the cold. AE can be a 'picture saver', but I can live without it.
So, for me the choice is the M6ttl. Get the flare fix for the viewfinder and you will have a companion for life.
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Turtle
Veteran
The reason why shutter dial rotation is mentioned so frequently, yet is not a big deal for some... is that it is a very big deal for people working at speed and intuitively and not a big deal for those working more slowly and where you can afford to lose a second or three going to the wrong way. It depends entirely on what you do.
If you work under time pressure and seconds count.... and use multiple bodies from the same bag, not knowing which way you should turn the dial until you discover you have gone the wrong way is probably the most efficient way of wasting time and shots I can think of. I work this way and would not dream of buying a body which had a dial that rotated the other way because it would completely undermine my intuitive operation of the camera. I am constantly updating my readings and exposure settings as I wander around and I have to be able to so in a snap, without thinking or wondering whether it is the classic or TTL against my eye. This is why i shoot M6 classics and MPs. Had I bought into Leica with the M6TTL/M7 I would have stayed with those two as the dials go the same way.
If you work under time pressure and seconds count.... and use multiple bodies from the same bag, not knowing which way you should turn the dial until you discover you have gone the wrong way is probably the most efficient way of wasting time and shots I can think of. I work this way and would not dream of buying a body which had a dial that rotated the other way because it would completely undermine my intuitive operation of the camera. I am constantly updating my readings and exposure settings as I wander around and I have to be able to so in a snap, without thinking or wondering whether it is the classic or TTL against my eye. This is why i shoot M6 classics and MPs. Had I bought into Leica with the M6TTL/M7 I would have stayed with those two as the dials go the same way.
peter_n
Veteran
In the heat of battle (so to speak) it can be a problem if the cameras you are using have controls that work in opposite directions, that's just basic ergonomics. Things may be perfectly OK when you have lots of time, but add stressors to the situation and you get human error. That's why I don't use Nikon and Leica together.I dont get it why speed dial rotation direction is mentioned so often here in forum, not just this thread. but thats just me
MCTuomey
Veteran
+2 to what peter and turtle say -
standardizing one's gear to ensure consistent, smooth, error-free operation shouldn't be overlooked. imho this is more important than M6 v M6ttl v M7 v MP debates based on battery use, manual v AE metering, or viewfinder because operating the camera inefficiently will cause more lost shots than battery dependence, metering mode, etc.
standardizing one's gear to ensure consistent, smooth, error-free operation shouldn't be overlooked. imho this is more important than M6 v M6ttl v M7 v MP debates based on battery use, manual v AE metering, or viewfinder because operating the camera inefficiently will cause more lost shots than battery dependence, metering mode, etc.
mr roberts
Just R
I've had them all
I've had them all
...and an MP as well.
MP wasn't worth the extra cost to me. Dial direction bothered me.
M7 was nice. I liked the AE and the more versatile shutter speeds for chromes. Never had a battery problem. I used it in conjunction with a TTL and I found it troublesome going between AE and no AE. At the time I couldn't afford to buy a pair or them so I let it go and stuck with the 2 TTL's that I had.
M6TTL is my favorite. The height that it shares with the M7 never played into my decision making and I used all of them with PhotoEquip grips anyway. You can store lots of spare batteries in the grip. I like having the better flash capability available if and when needed and I always have an SF20 with me in case. I shoot right eyed with both open so I prefer the .85 finder on my one body. The other is a .72 for the wider framelines, but I often leave the 1.25 VF mag on it so it acts the same as the other body when appropriate. The TTL is newer than the classic and easier to find in the VF version one prefers and the metering dot between the arrows is easier to use than balancing the brightness of the M6 arrows under many lighting conditions. I find it faster to work with as well.
M6 is more likely to require a CLA, doesn't handle flash as well (and sometimes you need it to get the shot), has a less sensitive meter and said meter is less user friendly in my opinion.
The M6TTL is the obvious choice for non AE to me and the M7 is the way to go if you want AE.
I've had them all
...and an MP as well.
MP wasn't worth the extra cost to me. Dial direction bothered me.
M7 was nice. I liked the AE and the more versatile shutter speeds for chromes. Never had a battery problem. I used it in conjunction with a TTL and I found it troublesome going between AE and no AE. At the time I couldn't afford to buy a pair or them so I let it go and stuck with the 2 TTL's that I had.
M6TTL is my favorite. The height that it shares with the M7 never played into my decision making and I used all of them with PhotoEquip grips anyway. You can store lots of spare batteries in the grip. I like having the better flash capability available if and when needed and I always have an SF20 with me in case. I shoot right eyed with both open so I prefer the .85 finder on my one body. The other is a .72 for the wider framelines, but I often leave the 1.25 VF mag on it so it acts the same as the other body when appropriate. The TTL is newer than the classic and easier to find in the VF version one prefers and the metering dot between the arrows is easier to use than balancing the brightness of the M6 arrows under many lighting conditions. I find it faster to work with as well.
M6 is more likely to require a CLA, doesn't handle flash as well (and sometimes you need it to get the shot), has a less sensitive meter and said meter is less user friendly in my opinion.
The M6TTL is the obvious choice for non AE to me and the M7 is the way to go if you want AE.
Tim Gray
Well-known
Except for those of us who don't make a living at this.
I don't get that confused when I pick up my 1V or MF camera instead of my M. About 30 seconds to reorient myself and I'm ready to go.
MCTuomey
Veteran
Tim, just to clarify, I was referring to using M-bodies used in tandem, moving between them during the course of shooting. Reorienting to shutter dials that turn in opposing directions when swapping M bodies is confusing, to me at least. But then I'm far from quick ...
Harry Lime
Practitioner
Depends on the shooter. Some people never come to grips with this, while others are not bothered. Doesn't necessarily make one a better shooter, if it isn't an issue. I mostly do street photography, documentary work, the occasional wedding, portraits and some commercial stuff, so speed is of essence.
I've been shooting for years 'at speed' with a mix of M2/M4/M6ttl/M7 bodies. Often two M bodies and an SLR with a 50 (Nikon/Leica). The Nikon makes things really interesting, because the aperture dial goes in the opposite direction of the Leica, but after a year with the F2 and R8, I've gotten the hang of it.
On the M bodies I almost never turn the shutter speed dial in the wrong direction, because after several years of shooting it has become completely ingrained in my muscle memory. It took me about 6 months of constant shooting with the Nikon to integrate it, although I do admit that I'll probably need another few months to really let it sink in.
So, I don't think it's accurate to generalize and say that all people have or will have a problem with the rotation direction. Your millage may vary.
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Harry Lime
Practitioner
peter_n
Veteran
As does the focusing ring...
healyzh
Well-known
The fact that the M6TTL is better suited to using a flash really won't effect my choice. I took a look in the case at my favorite local store today while picking up film, and spotted what looks like the main advantage for me of the M6TTL vs. the M6, and that is the size of the speed knob. Honestly the older knobs look really small, and harder to use.
It looks like I can do okay on an M6TTL from the shop (they also have a M2, M4-P, and M6, as well as a IIIf at the moment). The problem with them is they don't have any used lenses. The prices and selection at Tamarkin looks more interesting, does anyone know how accurate his grading is? I'm actually starting to think about picking up a Voigtlander 35mm f/2.5 pancake, a Leica body, and then start saving up for Leica glass. That would make it more affordable to get started, and believe it or not I'm more interested in the camera body than the glass, though I want real Leica lenses as well.
How bad is a Chrome Leica for attracting attention? I love the look of the chrome bodies, but don't want to attract attention to myself when I'm carrying it. With a black I figure I can simply put electrical tape over the identifying marks and it will be a little less obvious.
It looks like I can do okay on an M6TTL from the shop (they also have a M2, M4-P, and M6, as well as a IIIf at the moment). The problem with them is they don't have any used lenses. The prices and selection at Tamarkin looks more interesting, does anyone know how accurate his grading is? I'm actually starting to think about picking up a Voigtlander 35mm f/2.5 pancake, a Leica body, and then start saving up for Leica glass. That would make it more affordable to get started, and believe it or not I'm more interested in the camera body than the glass, though I want real Leica lenses as well.
How bad is a Chrome Leica for attracting attention? I love the look of the chrome bodies, but don't want to attract attention to myself when I'm carrying it. With a black I figure I can simply put electrical tape over the identifying marks and it will be a little less obvious.
mr roberts
Just R
I've found Tamarkin's grading to be fairly conservative and have purchased from them in the past. I've been quite happy in the dealings I've had with them.
The TTL is, to me, the better option because of age, SS dial (size & direction) and the 3 light meter readout. The better flash functionality is just along for the ride and a plus when it's needed.
Mine are both black and I don't tape them, but you could always use "chrome" metallic tape on a chrome body I suppose.
Good luck with whatever path you take.
The TTL is, to me, the better option because of age, SS dial (size & direction) and the 3 light meter readout. The better flash functionality is just along for the ride and a plus when it's needed.
Mine are both black and I don't tape them, but you could always use "chrome" metallic tape on a chrome body I suppose.
Good luck with whatever path you take.
Tim Gray
Well-known
I think Tamarkin is a legit dealer. I bought mine from Popflash because Tamarkin didn't have an M7 that had the optical DX reader at the time.
bwcolor
Veteran
I bought two cameras from Tamarkin. Seems that they grade conservatively. Had a problem with one camera. I shipped it to them, they fixed it and back within a week.
peter_n
Veteran
I honestly don't think it makes any difference, I've bought both and don't really have a preference, I just take what's available. Your behavior is more of a giveaway than the color or markings of a camera. If you act furtively you're more likely to be noticed than if you act like you belong in the scene I think.
M4-I-Love
Established
I think there is some sort of zen in the smaller shutter dial of the non TTL M6. The smaller dial is similar in size to the film rewind crank. Also similar in size to the "washer/screw?" on top of the shutter release and very similar in size to the viewfinder eyepiece. Everything seems to be in harmony. Wax on .... Wax off .... breathe .... zen.
aizan
Veteran
some photojournalist said he didn't like the larger dial on the m6ttl/m7 because it's susceptible to being accidentally turned while in the bag or if you hurriedly raise the camera to your eye from rubbing against your index finger. *shrug*