M8 and M9 side by side

[ray*j*gun]

Raid, thank you for the work in this thread.....it confirms what I felt for some time that in real world terms the M8 (mine is an M8u) is very very hard to beat.... I won't be selling mine anytime soon.

 

[raid]

The M8 is a great camera overall. I have no doubt about it.

 

[jaapv]

I meant to say that I used LR to save DNG files into jpg files. I understand that this has an effect. I just don't know how to post DNG files here.

You can’t. DNG files cannot be displayed. Devices like monitors and printers use JPG. Even the alleged display of a DNG file is just the embedded JPG.

 

[jaapv]

Also, I detected magenta cast in some images of the m9 and none in the m8 with IR filters

The IR surpression of the M8 is 50 % and of the M9 80 %. That means that the M9 does not need IR cut filters in normal circumstances as any IR contamination can be handled in postprocessing, but it will still need IR filters in high-IR situations or when extreme colour fidelity is needed.

 

[raid]

Thanks for the clarifications, Jaap. So it is in the prints where the DNG files pay a role. [seems to be wrong!]

 

[jaapv]

Thanks for the clarifi atiobs, Jaap. So it is in the prints where the DNG files pay a role.

Not even there. They contain the raw data that you develop into usable formats like tiff for editing or jpg for printing and display during postprocessing. (or by firmware into jpg in the camera, but we don’t do that, do we?😉)

 

[raid]

I use DNG files with LR5 for editing. Then, the files get saved into jpg, which get displayed. I could save images as DNG + jpg, as some do,.

 

[ChrisLivsey]

I did not match any white balances.

I suspect if you did some of the overall differences in colour "cast" would disappear. Left to their own devices (note subtle pun) both cameras choose a WB almost randomly it seems. If you are shooting a series it is easier to fix the WB in camera so editing is easier on the eye and is less distracting. The RAW/DNG allows any WB to be applied later, but try not to go too extreme as it may need to pull one channel up to excess and introduce noise. eg Tungsten is very blue deficient and commonly is in a darker scene so balancing for white can be a poor decision and draw attention to the noise in the inevitable shadows.
I think the M9 does have some advantageous differences over the M8 but the ratio S/H is two to one on price (approx) and I don't personally see that.

 

[raid]

What is the best/easiest way to lock in WB in a camera?

 

[willie_901]

Procure a neutral gray card. I like the small WhiBal card, but there are many other choices. Place it in the scene you intend to photograph.

Attempt to photograph a scene with light from a single color source. Multiple sources such as sunlight/shade or tungsten/halogen or even sunlight/flash will make comparisons difficult. For instance, a ceiling in a room lit by sunlight from windows and by tungsten lamps will often have a pink color cast. There is no single color temperature for scenes with strong contributions from light with different color temperatures.

With a DNG file in LR, click on the gray card with the color temperature dropper. This sets the color temperature parameter to the correct value for the portion of the scene with the gray card. Set all the other LR Development Panel sliders to their mid-points.

A DNG file is not affected by the camera's color temperature setting. The jpeg rendered from the DNG in-camera is affected by the camera's the color temperature setting. The initial display rendered from the DNG in LR is affected by the the camera's color temperature setting. But the DNG raw data does not contain specific color temperature information.

To avoid confusion, use the same lens with an IR lens filter with both cameras. If the filter is a proper IR cut filter for the Leica M8/9 cameras, the visible spectra should not be affected.

As an aside, IR light contamination has nothing to do with color temperature. IR conamination makes it impossible to estimate the true (but unknown) photon counts from visible light only. Of course this assumes different objects in the scene have different IR emission/reflectance properties. If all the objects have identical IR emission/reflectance, then you can correct for the artifact. Otherwise, the more different the subjects' IR properties are, the more ad-hoc the selective artifact correction becomes and in some cases even selective correction is futile.

 

[tajart]

setting wb

setting wb

raid, you asked about setting wb in camera:
when i moved from the m8, which i really enjoyed, to the m9, which i also really enjoy, i did some reading on thorsten overgaard's website. i started using his recommendation on setting white balance manually. while i don't always remember to set it each day...when i do, i find it a very useful approach to getting the wb work done in camera as opposed to having to do it on the computer. one can always make subtle adjustments on the computer as or if needed.
here is a link to his wb info: http://www.overgaard.dk/leica-M9-digital-rangefinder-camera-page-12.html

 

[raid]

Thanks to both of you for the tips on WB.


tajart: I visited also your website. Impressive.

 

[jaapv]

I use DNG files with LR5 for editing. Then, the files get saved into jpg, which get displayed. I could save images as DNG + jpg, as some do,.

Lightroom displays your edits in JPG and runs through your whole editing history at the end, producing a JPG file (or TIFF). Saving as DNG again - regard DNG as a box which can hold a number of different formats of data.
Actually it is related to TIFF. For instance: If you run Sandisk’s Rescue Pro, it will display rescued DNGs as TIFF files, which you only have to rename to turn them into DNGs which your converter can handle.

 

[raid]

I save all images as DNG on an external drive, and I then create jpg files from them in LR. I have lots to learn here.

 

[tajart]

processing

processing

raid, thanks for looking and your comment.

we all have our own ways of working, trying to find ways to present what we see. what i do toward that end is:
a: shoot raw format.
b. open and process dng file, saved on external hard drive.
c. edit dng file and save as tiff, saved on hard drive and ext hd.
d. resize the finished tiff file to jpeg for web.

i end up with the original DNG, a full size tiff for printing, and a jpeg for web. My goal for 2014 is to burn archival discs of the keepers.

 

[jaapv]

I save all images as DNG on an external drive, and I then create jpg files from them in LR. I have lots to learn here.

Well, basically you are doing it just right. Lightroom is designed to be used without worrying about this type of considerations.
As long as you keep your original DNG raws safe and backed up.

 

[ChrisLivsey]

What is the best/easiest way to lock in WB in a camera?

From the SET menu button on the M8.

Avoid the flash setting, strangely on Phase One backs this is often recommended as a default as it is very "neutral". On the M8 though (no idea about the M9) it used to (not tested on latest firmware as I don't use the setting) not fix the WB in the DNG file, it appeared to take note of any ambient and try to balance with the flash even though the manual lumped it in as a fixed setting.
Certainly if you fix the setting you will see more consistency across the jpegs.
Also, whilst I agree with the grey card methodology, bear in mind that WB is not a be all and end all scientific fixed point to acheive it can look wrong even when "right". eg If you balance a sunset on a grey card you are not going to end up with a "pleasing" shot.

 

[Mcary]

Thanks for the clarifications, Jaap. So it is in the prints where the DNG files pay a role. [seems to be wrong!]

The main difference between DNG/RAW files and JPEG files is DNG/RAW are 12-14 Bit files (16bit in the case of some digital backs) While JPEG are 8bit files. Its this greater bit depth that allows a greater latitude when processing image files.
As to how much this greater bit depth matter well that depends on how close to the perfect/ideal exposure the file coming out of the camera is.
A good way to see what difference this play is editing is to shoot DNG/RAW+JPEG then with little or any processing in LR/ACR create a 16Bit and an 8Bit TIFF or PSD file from the DNG/RAW file and an 8bit TIFF/PSD file from the JPEG file and then open all three files in Photshop.
Next do some extreme adjustments to the levels and/or curves then look at the histograms where you'll see gaps beginning to appear in the histograms of the 8bit files vs the 16bit file.

 

[raid]

raid, thanks for looking and your comment.

we all have our own ways of working, trying to find ways to present what we see. what i do toward that end is:
a: shoot raw format.
b. open and process dng file, saved on external hard drive.
c. edit dng file and save as tiff, saved on hard drive and ext hd.
d. resize the finished tiff file to jpeg for web.

i end up with the original DNG, a full size tiff for printing, and a jpeg for web. My goal for 2014 is to burn archival discs of the keepers.

I don't do your step c. Do you have a preferred way for saving DNG files to TIFF files?

 

[raid]

Well, basically you are doing it just right. Lightroom is designed to be used without worrying about this type of considerations.
As long as you keep your original DNG raws safe and backed up.

This is good to know! You can be very "exact", Jaap, which is good for learning.