M8 article

Bill Pierce

Bill Pierce

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I am sure that this article has been brought to the attention of RFF members in other threads, but, if you haven't run across it, I recommend it.

http://web.mac.com/kamberm/Leica_M8_Field_Test,_Iraq/Page_1.html

This is not some over the top tirade. It's a sad statement of fact by a photojournalist who has depended on Leica in the past and now, as his trade is essentially digital, can't count on them anymore.

I used to photograph wars among other things and, like Mr. Kamber, found film Leicas were among the best tools for that work. The problems he has had with M8s doing the important work of photographing a war are the same problems I have had doing lesser work. We both have gone through 3 M8s. My third one seems to be working. But, because of my experience with numbers 1 and 2, I would hesitate to use it in a situation where the pictures were important and reshooting impossible. And, truth is, you actually want several bodies not only to let you use several lenses, but to provide back up in case of theft, damage or failure, something a little difficult to do with M8s on a photojournalist's income.

I've never met Mr. Kamber. We have mutual friends. And we shop at the same camera store, Fotocare, in NYC. So, maybe someday we will cross paths. I hope so; I have a special regard for photographers that do what he does. I know it's silly to say that Leica has a special obligation to the generations of photographers who do what he does. They don't. But they used to behave as if they did. And it was very nice.
 
I just finished reading Mr Kamber's article and came to RFF to see if it'd been picked up by the folks here. I agree it's a really well balanced review of a product in real world situations. And a sad reflection on what Leica has become in the 21st century.

Like Mr Kamber, I love my film Leicas, but unlike him I'm a hobbyist who can afford the luxury of sticking with film. If I *had* to shoot digital, I regret to say I'd be looking at Canons and Nikons same as everyone else.
 
I just read the article. Well written, if I were in the market for an M8 this article would kill it for me. In a way it is kind of sad for Leica.
 
I think there are many of us who shoot for a living who'd like an 'M' option for certain work. I recently shot a wedding in a church with very low light (The church was about 1,000 years old) I had to shoot my 5d at iso 3200 to have any chance of getting a fair proportion of usable shots. I don't think that an M8 would would cut it in the same situations as it stands. High iso's are too noisy and the camera just seems to have a reputation for unreliability that precludes its use in things that can't be re-shot. A fully sorted M9 would be ideal for the type of work I do and I hope it comes soon.
 
Wow. Okay, so I don't have the same reliability requirements as Bill does. But I did by my other Leica's with full confidence that they would be superbly reliable. And I did buy an M8 to try out. But I made absolutely sure that it was covered by warranty. The M8 is the only Leica that I would not buy used. Almost all my other Leica's were bought used.

Within "hobby" parameters, my M8 has performed superbly. But for mil-grade reliability, I'd agree, it wouldn't be the camera of choice.

...Vick
 
Further thoughts:
The article points out many poor ergonomic design flaws of the M8. Again I do not own one and I am not planning on shooting in a war zone. But my Epson R-d1 does not suffer from these design flaws. What's up with that?
 
leicasniper said:
There seems to be a much stronger determination among users of $5,000 Leicas to defend the camera against all criticism than the users of other $5,000 cameras (though I guess only the D3 and ID MkIII's are in that price class as photojournalist tools).
Click to expand...

Funny ..... in my perception there seems to be a much stronger determination to critisize the m8 than any other $5000 digital camera ..... especially by people who never owned or used one .....;)
 
J. Borger said:
Funny ..... in my perception there seems to be a much stronger determination to critisize the m8 than any other $5000 digital camera ..... especially by people who never owned or used one .....;)
Click to expand...

Funny.. I own and use.. and will use again.. once I get it back from Solms after it's one month+ vacation; oh, and that was only after 2 weeks of use (i.e. brand new it had an issue out of the box).

I think I've earned the "right" to criticize the camera.

Dave
 
I enjoyed the review. A very good resource for someone considering the camera for more than hobby photography.
I was a little disappointed that even a Pulitzer prize-winning journalist of today doesn't know how to use apostrophes correctly.
Leica Ms, not Leica M's! I have three M8s. Not three M8's!
 
leicasniper said:
It gets a little complicated with camera models. There is no Leica M8s. I use apostrophes to set the plural away from the model name/number. The usage may not be correct, but it avoids confusion.
Click to expand...
It confuses me. I'm reading on to see exactly what these M8 cameras own!
(Apostrophes being possessive) ;)
 
Great read.
As has been pointed out, he's not really treading new ground in terms of identifying new problems. But he's putting them in a real world context, demonstrating the limitations of this camera. I love my M8, but it is a camera that does not live up the legacy of its line.
For most of us, the camera is fine. We can live with the lack of reliability because our jobs don't depend on it. (I just sent my own back to Leica to hopefully fix an electronics problem.)
But photojournalists - who have long been one of Leica's core markets - don't have the luxury of stopping in mid shoot to pull out the battery to reset the camera when it shuts down without warning. They have to know that when they pull the trigger on a frame, they are going to capture something.
But what I can't tell is whether Leica no longer cares about the professional photographer, or if the company is just having trouble getting its act together.
 
This article pretty much killed my desire to buy a M8. A $5000 camera needs to be better than that, regardless of the manufacturer. If it were a $2000 camera, I might be willing to overlook some of the shortcomings, but it seems that the M8 isn't really competitive with the Nikon D200 or D300.
 
I know we've gotten off topic here, but anyone who's ever worked in a newsroom knows photographers can't write, spell or punctuate:)
 
dcsang said:
Already discussed in this thread:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=59992

That said... I wonder if anyone will cite your information here Bill (as they seem want to do in the other thread) as being an "impeccable" source wrt the M8's qualities versus sloughing off Mr Kamber's review.

Dave
Click to expand...

Dave -

When the M8 first appeared everyone was so excited and pleased that there was a digital Leica M that, given the limited amount of time they had to really test it, it's no suprise that many wrote deadlined reviews that bubbled over with enthusiasm. And given a $5000 price tag for a body without a lens, it's no suprise that some folks who own the camera get a little defensive when it is criticized.

Does anybody know if Geoffrey Crawley, the ex editor of the British Journal of Photography has written an M8 review? I believe he is now retired but occasionally writes a review for England's Amateur Photographer. While everybody rushed to press, Geoffrey would take close to a year to get out a review, but it was usually right on target.

My only other thought is that maybe some of the smaller cameras from folks like Sygma and Panasonic, maybe even Canon and Nikon, will evolve into the "Leicas" of the future. Autofocus instead of rangefinder focus, but high quality, high speed lenses and larger, lower noise sensors. The thought of collectors debating the value of early Panasonics, though, is a little weird.

Bill
 
I think the M8 is a great tool and worth the 5K it commands simply because it is a specialized item. A Leica is not for everybody and I agree, the M8 is finnicky.

I hope the M9 will be a true M Tank just like the film Ms... Minor glitches fixed making it a wonderful tool.
 
Bill -
Thanks for your insight into the article.
I think it's unfair to bash the article's author since his intention wasn't to report back on whether the camera is worth $5500 - he was simply comparing his film M cameras against the digital M.

It also helped wake me up a bit and took the shine off the M8 for the meantime because of its performance shortcomings.

I think I may still end up getting one, but I really am leaning towards waiting for what Leica has up their sleeve next.

This is a critical transitional time for the company and I think that their new products will help give all of us a better idea of whether Leica intends to, in you words, fulfill their "special obligation to the generations of photographers who do what they do."
Here's hoping for the best.
M
 
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