M8 Banding Problem

[Ben Z]

Here's an interesting reply to someone over on the LUG who has found the banding/streaking problem...maybe good news and worth checking your images to corroborate: http://www.leica-users.org/v33/msg06089.html

 

[jaapv]

Clay, have you tried shooting JPEGs, just for the heckuvit? Also, have you discovered any means in CS2 or other post-processing software to eradicate or at least diminsh this phenomenon?

BTW if it isn't the traditional banding that affect(ed) some earlier dslrs like the Canon 1D, maybe it will be successfully fixed with a firmware patch. Here's hoping.

Band Aide (Quantum) seems to resolve the problem in PS

anyway, and some saying a firmware update won't fix it, it will need the sensor to be replaced.

I'm looking forward to that.. Two sensors at the same price- it makes the camera positively cheap 😀

 

[truando]

supposedly there was a meeting on friday at leica about this problem, and it was declared top priority. We'll get some official news soon, I assume.

 

[Ben Z]

Let's hope it's not "soon" in Leica's historical interpretation of the word 😀 And then let's hope it's good news.

 

[John Camp]

Band Aide (Quantum) seems to resolve the problem in PS 😀

I tried this, and it seems to make no difference. Maybe I'm using it incorrectly? Just seemed to make everything a little fuzzy, and I could sstill see the bands. Any tips on technique? (I've got CS2 and I did go down to 8-bit.)

JC

 

[willie_901]

John,

Any software approach to digital-artifact attenuation or thermal-noise reduction (or grain reduction in film) uses some sort of data averaging algorithm. Whenever you average data, resolution will be lost. The value of Band Aide, and all the tools available for digital-image filtering, is they can achieve an acceptable balance between resolution degradation and artifact suppression.

If the vendor's model for the artifact(s) you wish to suppress does not coincide with the true – but unknown – artifact characteristics in the data, then all you will observe is a loss in resolution.

Band Aide was designed to model banding artifacts in the Nikon D1 at ISO > 800. You may have empirical evidence that the causes of the D1 artifacts and the M8 artifacts are different.

willie

 

[MP Guy]

I shot a picture of my office today at iso 1250. the only banding I saw was originating from a bright lamp. Regardless, the banding is there. 🙁

 

[egpj]

I shot a picture of my office today at iso 1250. the only banding I saw was originating from a bright lamp. Regardless, the banding is there. 🙁

Have you heard if Leica plans to do anything about it?😕

 

[jaapv]

Have you heard if Leica plans to do anything about it?😕

Yes- by chiqua, on the Leica Kunden Forum:

Guten Morgen.
Ich habe soeben mit dem Leica Support telefoniert, da hat sich einiges geklärt.
1. 6-bit Erkennung von Objektiven: Wenn ein Objektiv das keine 6-bit Version ist, an der M8 mit eingeschalteter Objektiverkennung verwendet wird, kann(!) es zu Fehlbelichtungen kommen. Das sagen die Leicas aber nur aus Sicherheit, weil sie es noch nicht genau wissen. Bislang sind noch keine Probleme bekannt geworden. D.h. kommt es zu keinen Fehlbelichtungen und sind die Vignettierungen nicht störend, gibt es keinen Grund das Objektiv ein zu schicken. Super 100 € gespart 🙂
2. Mein M8 Absturz. Da konnte der nette Leica-Mann natürlich nichts zu sagen, er hat es weiter gegeben. Interessant war in dem Zusammenhang das er meine Einschätzung, dass die Firmware (1.06) sicherlich nicht die Finale ist, sehr deutlich teilte. Ich schätze, da haben wir recht bald was neues.
3. Banding (oder was es auch immer ist): Ja, da wäre er am Freitag noch in einem Meeting gewesen, das wäre ein "ganz heißes Thema" bei Leica. Hätte höchste Priorität und würde schnellstmöglich gelöst. Auf mein Nachfrage ob das auch Softwareseitig gelöst würde, sagte er, dass es da mehrere Ansätze gebe und man noch prüfe. Aha, das kann ja noch interessant werden.
So, mir reicht das erst mal. Ich werde mich jetzt weiterhin an meiner M8 erfreuen und der Dinge harren die da kommen. Ich glaube nicht, dass irgendwer die M8 zu früh gekauft hat, schlimmstenfalls müssen wir sie einfach noch mal einschicken. Bis dahin haben die einen Spass am Nörgeln und ich Spass am fotografieren. Nix für Ungut ;-)
Schönen Tag noch, Frank

 

[egpj]

I guess that is German so with Alta Vista I got the gist of it.

Alta Vista translation

Good mornings. I telephoned just with the Leica support, there some clarified myself. 1. 6-bit recognition of objectives: If an objective is not 6-bit version, at which M8 with switched on objective identification is used, kann(!) to false exposure come. The Leicas says however only from security, because they do not know it exactly yet. So far are still no problems admits become. I.e. it comes to no false exposure and is not not disturbing the vignettierungen, enters it no reason the objective to send. Super 100? saved: -) 2. My M8 crash. There the nice Leica man could say to naturally nothing, he it continued to give. Interesting was in the connection which it my estimate that the firmware (1.06) is surely not the final, divided very clearly. I estimate, there have we quite soon which new. 3. Banding (or which it also always is): Yes, there he would have been on Friday still in a meeting, that would be a "completely hot topic" with Leica. Highest priority would have and was as fast as possible solved. On my demand whether also the in terms of software was solved, said it that it gives several beginnings there and one still examines. Aha, which can become still interesting. So, that is enough to me only times. I will enjoy now further to my M8 and to the things will await to come there. I do not believe that possibly who bought the M8 too early at worst must we it simply still times return. Up to then have the one fun at the Noergeln and I fun to to photograph. Nix for bad; -) Beautiful day still, franc

 

[jaapv]

noergeln=grumbling. Other posters in the same thread have even more firm statements by the Leica service department: "the issue will be resolved definitly in the near future."
It is interesting that Leica is talking to its private customers on a personal basis and giving decent information this way instead of going in denial mode or a secretive huddle, like some other camera manufacturers with similar problems did in the past. One advantage of dealing with a small company with a dedicated staff imo.

 

[Ben Z]

How soon the cause and a fix can be determined is only one part of the question. The second part is how quickly it can be implemented. If it's a firmware thing and they can put it on their website as a download with instructions for user updating, then it shouldn't be a big hassle. If it isn't something user-fixable, then it could be quite a logistical challenge. AFAIK there is no service personnel or equipment anywhere but at Solms so the cameras would need to be shipped back there, most likely via the regional distributor. That could translate to quite a long wait. I would hope in that case Leica would simply ship out new ones in exchange but wouldn't expect it. At least if it takes 6 months I hope they re-start peoples' 2-yr warranties from that date rather than the purchase date. Some kind of goodwill gesture would be reasonable. Like a spare battery perhaps. They cost $109!

 

[gogopix]

you bet they should give us a new battery. $109! wow, and they don't even exist! (at least I couldnt' buy one)

And whie we are at it, why is coding taking so long?

you would think they could also do better on the wide end than a SLOW f4 lens with an ugly viewfinder

and where is the FF?

and autofocus?

at leasdt it should have IS, my hands shake something fierce...

.....

HEY, this 'Noergeln" stuff can be fun! 😀

 

[petermcwerner]

A statement from Leica CS

A statement from Leica CS

From the German Digitalforum:

A German user who had sent in yesterday some files with banding was called back today by Leica CS and told the following: (my translation)

1. The problem is known and is not being minimized
2. There will be a solution. This will also apply to those who have already bought the camera.
3. Expect December, might be January.
4. Tendency seems to be sending the camera in to the factory, but this is not yet decided. If so, the fix should be fast. Same day if you can bring in the camera to Solms, previous appointment, others add shipping time.

 

[David Murphy]

With the proviso of not being able to download the specific images in question I have a couple of comments. First of all "banding" is probably a read defect revealing what is more commonly called pattern noise in digital imaging *or* an electronic bias which is not being removed from the raw image by electronics/firmware in the camera (or both). Digital imaging sensors should ideally show only a random noise distrubution. Such a systematic read defect indicates to me that either these cameras were either inadequately tested by Leica or perhaps that they were sold with known defects. I think former case is more likely.

The origins of these sorts of problems are sometimes complex and require exensive testing and work to track down, and the fixes not always clear cut. The solutions are not necessarily realized by firmware changes, but sometimes require hardware modifications. The solutions are very specific to the actual causes and if they are addressable by firmware changes the camera electronics must be particularly flexible and reconfigurable.

As to remarks seen here that these are birthing pains that must be ironed out over time, I think there is some merit to that argument. Few digital imaging systems work as well in the field as well as they do in the lab and often fixes based on real-word results are necessary to acheive a satisfactory result. I personally hope the issues are resolved as I want to see Leica making cameras into the future.

While I could be wrong, I have been designing readout electronics for digital sensors for about the last 20 years so this has given me some limited insight into such problems.