M8 Future

[ernesto]

Hello You all!

I have not an M8, yet.
It bothers me the idea of a small sensor, as I am a wide angle shooter.
My favourites are 12mm and 15mm, sometimes I use a 21mm too.
I know that the M8 sensor will reduce my superwides.

Anyway, my questions are:

1) When was introduced the M8?
2) How much time is needed to have a full frame Leica?
3) Should I wait for the M9 or just go with the M8?

I know that these questions are for someone that can see future, but I will be happy to know your guess as Leica users.

Thanks in advance!

Ernesto

 

[Mike Ip]

Frankly, Ernesto, if you want a digital rangefinder, just buy the M8 now. I had pondered this idea for the greater part of the last 5 months and just sucked it up and bought one two weeks ago. No regrets at all. I also shoot canon digitals, and a lot of people are always waiting for the new model to come. I feel if you keep waiting and waiting, you'll just waste time - time in which you could be shooting!

 

[Al Patterson]

Well, I'm always ready to hazard a guess and later be made a fool of, so here goes. Leica will not introduce a full frame M9. The technical problems are too daunting. Instead they will introduce a compact, crop sensor M camera. It will cost as much as the M8. They will be able to sell as many as they can make.

A digital CLE or CL would be cool, even with a 1.33 crop. I know the wide angle folks won't like it, but it would be neat. And as with the M8, I'll get one when I hit the Powerball Lottery...

(63 million tonight, but I KNOW I have a losing ticket. 20 years of playing and all I've gotten back is $3. Maybe I should invest in collectible Leicas instead).

 

[n8b]

Epson RD1?

Epson RD1?

Would you consider the Epson RD1 for a digital rangefinder? It's about half the cost and it will accept Leica lenses. I'm thinking about going this route due to the cost of the M8.

Nate

 

[infocusf8@earthlink.]

Ernesto,
The M8 has an APS H sized sensor which is the next size down from full frame. As has been stated it has a 1.3X crop factor. It is doubtfull that Leica will issue a full frame sensor camera any time soon but when PMA and Photokina come around rumors abound which mostly are fanciful thinking. I asked our Leica rep if anything new was in the offing for PMA and he said it was going to be very boring for him. Occasionally a Canon fanatic, who neither owns or uses the M8, will creep in here and try to tell you that a Rebel produces as good of an image as the M8. The same people will argue that the sensor size in the Canon 5D being larger than the M8 relates to better image quality due to the size difference and will also try to convince you that the Rebel's APS C size sensor (smaller than an M8) gives better image quality than the larger M8 sensor. It too is fanciful thinking. The M8 sensor was specifically developed for optimal image quality from Leitz lenses and the Canon sensor is a generic sensor designed to give good image quality with either film camera lenses or DX lenses, the primary sharpening and image correction done by the digic processor. As far as waiting for the M9 it is unlikely that much will change except MP which will go up as will the price of the camera. As one person stated here you can keep waiting for the perfect camera and miss a lot of good photography with the M8. The M8 is an excellent photographic tool that will provide you with years of satisfying photography.😎

 

[Mike Ip]

infocus, the question I answered was about the DMR, not the M8. They do not use the same sensor. The DMR is several year old technology that really can't compete with the Xti's 10mp sensor.

But one could argue that any R lens could blow just about any EF-S lens out of the water... I'd like to see an R lens on an XTi, and see how much better or worse it really is. I mean these things still command $3000+ on ebay.

 

[grduprey]

infocus, the question I answered was about the DMR, not the M8. They do not use the same sensor. The DMR is several year old technology that really can't compete with the Xti's 10mp sensor.

You will get a huge argument out of DMR users, and the images I have seen from the DMR blow any digital Rebel even the latest version, out of the water. It is also a 10 MB sensor. I have seen mages made with the DMR that rival even the 1Ds MkII.

Gene

 

[kevin m]

The DMR is several year old technology that really can't compete with the Xti's 10mp sensor.

Other way around. The XTI is a new sensor that can't compete with the DMR, in terms of image quality, anyway.

 

[Mike Ip]

OK here's another quasi-off-topic question. Why doesn't the DMR, which doesn't have an AA-filter NOT require IR Cut filters, but the M8 does? How radically different is the sensor of the M8 that it requires the need?

 

[Bill Blackwell]

Here's a prediction (not based on any direct knowledge):

Within the next 12-months, Leica will introduce the M9 on a smaller platform compared with the M8 (perhaps approximating the size of an M6 classic), with a 16+ mega pixel sensor, the same 1.33x cropped sensor, lower noise at the higher ISO settings, and priced similarly to today’s M8 (say, $6,000). The M8 will then remain as a reduced cost (say, $4,500) alternative.

Although some are predicting a full-frame sensor for the M9, I would see this as highly unlikely. But one never knows.

Since M8 sales have virtually come to a screeching halt, Leica certainly couldn't hurt itself by announcing the M8's predecessor by showing a prototype at this month’s PMA show.

 

[kuzano]

Sensor size under current technology

Sensor size under current technology

Dictates a somewhat more expensive and larger camera. Look at or better yet, hold one of the few full frame sensor camera's. They are large. The sensor itself and the supporting equipment would make the Leica a much larger camera if a move was made to full size sensor, not to mention more expensive.

That's a particular factor in large format camera backs still using multiple scanning passes to take a large format digital picture.

Development seems to be aimed at improving the photosites and drive engines for the smaller sensors to minimize sensor expense and camera size. Getting hung up on sensor size will probably deter sellers from looking at the real improvements in the field that are economically justifiable, and not having to work out once a day to be able to muscle the full sensor cameras in the field.

If a Leica M9 came to market in the next 6 months, AND if it were 35% larger than the M8, AND if the price went to $6000...... Would you buy it when it hits the streets, unproven?

 

[kuzano]

I missed my final point

I missed my final point

As a consultant in the computer field, let me say this. If you are waiting for the manufacturers to produce a perfect product, and the field to stabilize, you will never buy. Digital and computer technology is based on a continuous stream of new, improved product to keep the "money trough" full for the investors and CEO's and meet payrolls. I believe with all my heart and based on all I have seen that there will NEVER be a finished product in either the hardware or software market. Nor, will there ever be a product that won't leave the end users looking for the next evolution within days of buying the latest and greatest.

Do your research, pick a product, BUY and Don't Look Back. Otherwise take out one of those line of credit loans on the equity in your home (Well, OK, if you still have an equity, OR a home).

 

[Tuolumne]

Here's a prediction (not based on any direct knowledge):

...

Since M8 sales have virtually come to a screeching halt, Leica certainly couldn't hurt itself by announcing the M8's predecessor by showing a prototype at this month’s PMA show.

Elsewhere in this forum we read that Leica can sell as many M8s as they want at almost any price. What's the real truth here. Is the pipeline full or empty?

/T

 

[rolo]

The M9 will replace the M8 which will be discontinued due to the massive warranty costs being incurred for the M8.

The M9 will be a modified M8 body and the same crop sensor with a small increase in pixel count. Leica will fix the 'mechanical' issues and the M9 will have more of the traditional Leica quality as seen in the M6/M7.

Launch will be well in advance of Photokina as the product is almost ready and is currently being field tested. Timing is good because the market is well aware of the M8's capability and it's short comings and when the shortcomings are repaired a massive group of non Leica owners will buy the body and several lenses making the M9 the most successful Leica initiative since the M3.

The M8 has created the platform, the M9 is the product that will secure Leica's future in the digital market.

If you can't capture your photos with anything else for the time being, buy an M8 now.

 

[infocusf8@earthlink.]

Where?

Where?

The M9 will replace the M8 which will be discontinued due to the massive warranty costs being incurred for the M8.

The M9 will be a modified M8 body and the same crop sensor with a small increase in pixel count. Leica will fix the 'mechanical' issues and the M9 will have more of the traditional Leica quality as seen in the M6/M7.

Launch will be well in advance of Photokina as the product is almost ready and is currently being field tested. Timing is good because the market is well aware of the M8's capability and it's short comings and when the shortcomings are repaired a massive group of non Leica owners will buy the body and several lenses making the M9 the most successful Leica initiative since the M3.

The M8 has created the platform, the M9 is the product that will secure Leica's future in the digital market.

If you can't capture your photos with anything else for the time being, buy an M8 now.

Where is this information coming from? What are your sources? How did the DMR get involved in an M8 discussion? You are more likely to see a new Leica DSLR than an M9 and that information comes from a Leica rep.

 

[Harry Lime]

Since M8 sales have virtually come to a screeching halt, Leica certainly couldn't hurt itself by announcing the M8's predecessor by showing a prototype at this month’s PMA show.

Where did you get this information from? Two of my local dealers are still selling the M8 as fast as they can get them.

 

[Ben Z]

The M9 will replace the M8 which will be discontinued due to the massive warranty costs being incurred for the M8.

...I believe they will still have to incur those costs for everyone who has one or will buy one on closeout...plus, given Leica's history, the M9 will surely have its own issues to be dealt with under warranty.

a massive group of non Leica owners will buy the body and several lenses

OK, you got me 😛 I almost took your post seriously. Good one 😀 😀 !!

 

[Leicabug]

The M9 will replace the M8 which will be discontinued due to the massive warranty costs being incurred for the M8.

The M9 will be a modified M8 body and the same crop sensor with a small increase in pixel count. Leica will fix the 'mechanical' issues and the M9 will have more of the traditional Leica quality as seen in the M6/M7.

If Leica can't get M8 right, M9 won't be much better.

 

[Bill Blackwell]

Where did you get this information from? Two of my local dealers are still selling the M8 as fast as they can get them.

You can currently walk into any number of Leica shops here in California and see M8s on the shelf. That must mean they're not selling them as fast as they can get them.

And I deal with two Leica dealers locally who sell nationally and both say "M8 sales have all but stopped."

 

[Ben Z]

What Bill says doesn't shock me. In the recent (5-10 years) past, new Leica film bodies reached a sales-saturation point in a couple of years. Given the M8's well-publicized issues plus the repetitive price hikes when digital cameras otherwise tend to decrease in price over time, it isn't surprising that the M8 would reach saturation in just over a year. Add to that the fact that there are used and demos available now.