M8 Future

[ernesto]

Would you consider the Epson RD1 for a digital rangefinder? It's about half the cost and it will accept Leica lenses. I'm thinking about going this route due to the cost of the M8.

Nate

I understand that the RD1 sensor is smaller comared to M8 so it will be worse for me using superwides!

Ernesto

 

[Mike Ip]

As a consultant in the computer field, let me say this. If you are waiting for the manufacturers to produce a perfect product, and the field to stabilize, you will never buy. Digital and computer technology is based on a continuous stream of new, improved product to keep the "money trough" full for the investors and CEO's and meet payrolls. I believe with all my heart and based on all I have seen that there will NEVER be a finished product in either the hardware or software market. Nor, will there ever be a product that won't leave the end users looking for the next evolution within days of buying the latest and greatest.

Do your research, pick a product, BUY and Don't Look Back. Otherwise take out one of those line of credit loans on the equity in your home (Well, OK, if you still have an equity, OR a home).

Good point. I think your post somewhat support my initial suggestion. When I used to be a software developer, we'd usually stop at a 90% solution and release the software, before we started to work on it some more and gain more insight into what to add to the next version. I imagine hardware people would have a similar mantra. You forget that Leica is still a company looking at their bottom line. If they wait and wait until the perfect the M9 with 16 MP, full frame, M6 size, ISO 100 - 3200 with low high ISO noise, with no AA Filter and no aliasing or magenta issues, we might have to wait until 2015. Not to mention, Leica will probably lose a good deal of money not having new items to entice customers. It just won't happen.

Now what is Leica's 90% solution? Who knows. Maybe a 1.3x crop, with 12 MP, increase ISO range and performance? That certainly is reasonable.

 

[ernesto]

Well It seems that this is a Hot topic!
Thanks to everybody telling your opinions. All viewpoints are very interesting, and they opened my mind!

Thanks again!

Ernesto

 

[infocusf8@earthlink.]

Supply Meets Demand

Supply Meets Demand

You can currently walk into any number of Leica shops here in California and see M8s on the shelf. That must mean they're not selling them as fast as they can get them.

At some point supply catches up with demand with any product, it doesn't mean sales have come to a halt just slowed to a normal rate. We already have a Nikon D3 and the Canon 1Ds Mark III sitting on the shelf and they've only been out a short time. Leica is having a hard time meeting demand for lenses. It took three months to get a 24mm from them. I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind wanting a new Leica M camera this soon given Leicas history of making cameras that have long life spans (some exceptions, the M4 for example). If Leica did replace the M8 this soon would the same people start criticizing Leica for falling into the throw-away electronic world we live in. Face it, there is no perfect camera except the one that's perfect for you.

 

[kuzano]

I like your wording.....90% solution.....

I like your wording.....90% solution.....

Good point. I think your post somewhat support my initial suggestion. When I used to be a software developer, we'd usually stop at a 90% solution and release the software, before we started to work on it some more and gain more insight into what to add to the next version. I imagine hardware people would have a similar mantra. You forget that Leica is still a company looking at their bottom line. If they wait and wait until the perfect the M9 with 16 MP, full frame, M6 size, ISO 100 - 3200 with low high ISO noise, with no AA Filter and no aliasing or magenta issues, we might have to wait until 2015. Not to mention, Leica will probably lose a good deal of money not having new items to entice customers. It just won't happen.

Now what is Leica's 90% solution? Who knows. Maybe a 1.3x crop, with 12 MP, increase ISO range and performance? That certainly is reasonable.

With the advent of the internet, almost all software (and in the case of camera's -- firmware) moved to 90% solutions. The standing final decision in the Board Room due to Market pressure...."Screw It, Pack It, Ship It, We'' Fix It (finish it) Later!!"

I can't speak to the Leica M8 replacement, since I don't even (and don't plan on) own an M8, but I think you'r estimate is closer to reality than most of the other conjecture.

 

[kuzano]

There are unrelated pressures at work here???

There are unrelated pressures at work here???

You can currently walk into any number of Leica shops here in California and see M8s on the shelf. That must mean they're not selling them as fast as they can get them.

And I deal with two Leica dealers locally who sell nationally and both say "M8 sales have all but stopped."

I don't think the ups and downs of the market for M8's can be totally to it's acceptibility in the Digital Camera market...

In times of a receding economy the first money to dry up is money for toys. And above all else the M8 is more of a toy in the camera market place than it is a necessary tool of the trade for professionals.

I fact there is a current review of the M8 in one of the UK digital magazines that ends with the comment that the M8 is exciting and possibly collectable, but certainly not a professional tool. I just read the article today at Barnes and Noble.

 

[cmogi10]

I don't think the ups and downs of the market for M8's can be totally to it's acceptibility in the Digital Camera market...

In times of a receding economy the first money to dry up is money for toys. And above all else the M8 is more of a toy in the camera market place than it is a necessary tool of the trade for professionals.

I fact there is a current review of the M8 in one of the UK digital magazines that ends with the comment that the M8 is exciting and possibly collectable, but certainly not a professional tool. I just read the article today at Barnes and Noble.

So is everyone using an M8 for paid work lying to themselves...and their clients?

 

[Mike Ip]

"In times of a receding economy the first money to dry up is money for toys."

But the folks buying new Leica stuff are a long way from living hand to mouth.

I think the Leica market will mostly remain a niche market. Being such, the clientele will rarely expand or shrink at a quick rate.

While you're probably right many Leica shooters aren't exactly struggling to make ends meat, the amount of people that can afford that kind of camera still decreases during harder times.

 

[kuzano]

Tending to believe in high ethics of this group....

Tending to believe in high ethics of this group....

So is everyone using an M8 for paid work lying to themselves...and their clients?

I suspect that they have mostly convinced themselves that their cameras actually produce a higher quality image than DSLR's, or they are doing a lot more post-processing in order to deliver a higher quality product. Or, it's entirely possible that they have discovered, as many photographers who sell their work, that the buyer really cannot (and has rarely ever been able to) distinguish between high quality work and the highest quality work. Once that factor is realized, the immediacy of digital produces a faster pay check, thereby forcing an economic decision on said photographer.

Otherwise, I am not pointing fingers, nor am I personally saying that an M8 cannot produce an image that is better than a DSLR. I am simply reporting what I have read in a review that is currently on the newstands. Anyone who wants the source can ask, and I will go back to Barnes and Noble and post the issue I saw today.

 

[cmogi10]

I suspect that they have mostly convinced themselves that their cameras actually produce a higher quality image than DSLR's, or they are doing a lot more post-processing in order to deliver a higher quality product. Or, it's entirely possible that they have discovered, as many photographers who sell their work, that the buyer really cannot (and has rarely ever been able to) distinguish between high quality work and the highest quality work. Once that factor is realized, the immediacy of digital produces a faster pay check, thereby forcing an economic decision on said photographer.

Otherwise, I am not pointing fingers, nor am I personally saying that an M8 cannot produce an image that is better than a DSLR. I am simply reporting what I have read in a review that is currently on the newstands. Anyone who wants the source can ask, and I will go back to Barnes and Noble and post the issue I saw today.

Ah...
I see

 

[varjag]

Well, I'm always ready to hazard a guess and later be made a fool of, so here goes. Leica will not introduce a full frame M9. The technical problems are too daunting. Instead they will introduce a compact, crop sensor M camera. It will cost as much as the M8. They will be able to sell as many as they can make.

By now I've heard the rumors of compact digital M more than once, but still a bit skeptical about it.

First, they have invested into tooling for M8 chassis, which have to be amortized. It makes sense from product development point to design toolings with some headroom for future models.

Second, the lower limit for M size is the rangefinder assembly used. M8 uses the same as in the rest of M series, just with different magnification and frameline mask. If they really want to make a CL-sized M9, they'd need to invest into design of CL-sized rangefinder.

These two factors, together with traditionally slow Leica pace of development (remember R9 which turned out another R8?), make it less likely to have a radically different package.

 

[rolo]

Where is this information coming from? What are your sources? How did the DMR get involved in an M8 discussion? You are more likely to see a new Leica DSLR than an M9 and that information comes from a Leica rep.

The facts came from a recent discussion between a Leica Country CEO and an acquaintance of mine who is involved in Leica retailing. His Leica sales have come to a complete halt and he needed to understand what the future was. He was completely satisfied with the response and the action plan. It's very positive, not negative. Why do M8 owners fear the future development of the camera ?? Do they want the company to stand still ? Do they think they bought a product that will be unchanged and that Leica will upgrade their M8's with all future changes ?

The opinions are a result of me assessing the situation and expressing my thoughts just as others are doing here. I truly believe that the M8 is a breakthrough product, but it's the first version and the first version rarely survives when so much of the margin is absorbed by the cost of replacing the product for reliability issues, continually fixing software and this lens compatibility is hurting the company's reputation for quality glass. The company is looking forward, is developing software and hardware and wants to stop fixing the current product. The sooner the better for all.

DMR ? I know nothing.

 

[jaapv]

infocus, the question I answered was about the DMR, not the M8. They do not use the same sensor. The DMR is several year old technology that really can't compete with the Xti's 10mp sensor.

Except quality-wise... There the Xti cannot compete with the DMR

varjag, you may have a point. But it seems to me there must be a lower priced M in the works to go with the lower priced lenses Leica is already offering.

It seems very Likely. Mr. Lee hinted as much in his LFI interview.

 

[TJV]

Man, all valid opinions. (I'm tired and am sitting up in bed because I can't sleep so excuse the following ramblings of this one sleep deprived madman.)

I'm thinking about the D-Lux3... It's been out for ages. Maybe it's time Leica built a flagship compact, like the CM was, and offer something as a "prestige" product that Panasonic doesn't offer. It's hard selling a D-Lux3 when the Panasonic version is sitting next to it, looks pretty much identical etc. Try telling someone that it's worth paying a third more for a product because "the Leica firmware is better."

As for the DMR, if you listen to the fanatics at another forum, you'll believe it's capable of unheard of magic, even after several (three?) years, and better than any of Canon or Nikon's offerings. Truth is, it probably is capable of magic, especially considering the quality of the glass avaliable for it, but it's debatable and subjective opinion as to if it's better than "current" technology in terms of what it's able to resolve all things like lenses being equal. Personally, I find it is amazing that someone can design and build a multi format back / camera, digi and film, let alone produce a small digital chip that senses 10 million points of light! I gues I'm trying to say, the people who bought the DMR are as happy today with the images as they day thay bought it because the files it produces are exactly the same as they always were. Very good, maybe exelent. Maybe the best?...?.... ?.. . .. .
I'm tired and don't know if that makes any sense! Just know I like the DMR, although I've never seen one in the flesh, but I'm also sure technology progresses too fast for most of us to notice how bigger or better things may or may not have got...

Anyway, I'm off topic... Back to the M...

The M8 is a great camera but also a flawed camera.
My story is that I owned it, gave up on it, lusted after it again and now have come to a place of peace a calm and reason. It's the best digital camera on the market for me but I still prefer editing and the process of working with film. I say this because the OP stated that he likes his wide angles and wonders it the M8 is for him considering its cropped sensor. My reply to him is that the M8 is a great digital camera and if he wants a digital rangefinder or a small camera that is a joy to use then get the M8. If the wide angle issue is more important than that, or being "digital" isn't important, then maybe stay with film and see what Leica come up with in the near future.

If I were him, I'd get the M8


Sorry for my illogical ramble.

 

[jaapv]

varjag, you may have a point. But it seems to me there must be a lower priced M in the works to go with the lower priced lenses Leica is already offering. As for the M9, I agree that it could only be an M8 with a higher resolution sensor stuffed in it. I just don't see Leica doing a complete redesign of the M series, and in the process killing their cash cow. It has got to look and feel like a traditional M to sell.

It seems very Likely. Mr. Lee hinted as much in his LFI interview.

 

[jaapv]

The facts came from a recent discussion between a Leica Country CEO and an acquaintance of mine who is involved in Leica retailing. His Leica sales have come to a complete halt

.

Now that is a surprising thing - Leica is selling as fast as they can produce. It may have more to do with the dollar crisis.

 

[TJV]

rolo, the problem you are facing is that many here (and elsewhere) do not view the M8 as a "broken" product. They view it as the finest camera in existence that creates better photos then any other digital camera, period. Arguing that Leica is trying to move past it is fruitless, I'm afraid.

I think this forum is a far better place for open discussion than some other places, although I do agree with your general sentiments. Like I said above, I happen to think that for me, because I can only speak for myself, the M8 is the best digital option on the market - but I no longer have one. I don't want a space rocket, as much as I do like the D300! I also think Leica have every reason to work quickly and come out with something that addresses some of the M8's well documented flaws. Then, as they say, the world will truely be a better place!

 

[jaapv]

Hmmm. I would substitute that with well-trolled flaws (no reflection on the present poster...)

Let me list the flaws for you:
1. Automatic white balance - why anybody would be interested in that feature is beyond me, but still - Yes Leica is working on new algorithms - meanwhile in 1.10 it is excellent for indoors use (see the current thread on LUF, consensus is better than D200) and sometimes inconsistent in daylight.
2. Sudden death syndrome - yes - one small batch of cameras had a faulty component, since replaced on most, and newer cameras are as free of such problems as any high-end camera. Not heard of for over half a year
3. Dodgy Jpegs - yes - again not very interesting as virtually nobody uses them - but the problem is only in colour - in black and white it turns out to be more than excellent. No "remedy"insight
4. IR/Uv filters Not a flaw, but a design limitation for rangefinders with this sensor size.
4. 1.33 crop - the best current technology - and forseeable technology can do for a rangefinder.
5. Noise - controversial. Most horrible noise shown is user error in exposure - for the rest better than most CCD cameras, but still, some noise at high ISO.
So I see no rationale for a drastically "improved" M9
Mayby some more MP, say 13, a bit less noise ( though, with more Mp, doubtful) a better Jepeg engine, that is about it. Not worth waiting for.
It would be nice if they changed the frameline coverage too, but that will certainly be retro-fittable.
As for focussing problems - partly user inexperience with rangefinders ( see for instance the problems some are having with focus shift - a phenomen well known in the rangefinder world, also in the film days),
Partly stemming from the fact that RF technology is stressed to the limit on a sensor camera - no cure in sight.

 

[rolo]

Now that is a surprising thing - Leica is selling as fast as they can produce.

I'm quoting the numbers from a local source about his local sales.

Jaap, how many M8's can Leica produce, how many are they selling, what's their inventory, their margin, their warranty costs, their return rates, their accruals for future failures, their development programme ? What do you know? Anything, or nothing?

I'm assuming you have no facts, but are attempting to undermine what I'm honestly stating for your own personal motives - whatever they may be.

I want Leica to be a huge success. The M8 produces wonderful images but is not a reliable tool. The design has not been fixed because the product has too many small flaws, but the concept has been proven and that sets the platform for the future.

 

[jaapv]

I am stating what my local dealer (the largest in the Benelux) is telling me, and what the quarterly financial report by Leica published.
I resent the dig about personal motives.
The thing is called perspective - you may know what you are talking about - I think I know what I am talking about - but presenting only negatives certainly gives a wrong impression to the non-expert passersby in this forum.