rolo
Established
No sudden death for 6 months - you must be missing some of the problem posts.
Here another jaapv was commenting on the battery problems only 5 days ago.
I've just been back through this thread and the only reference to a drastically improved M9 is your own comment.
Can your dealer advise the sales and production numbers for the M8 then?
I suspect your reading comments about flaws and turning them into negatives yourself. As someone who's spent many years developing products for companies (does DAF ring a bell?) I can assure that developing products to meet the market demands is a very 'positive' process.
I recently was shooting in a derelict factory and came across a sign that read "We are satisfied with our product". How long will Leica camera division survive if the M8 doesn't change and how much will it change in a 5/10 year period?
2 years ago the banks were in and Leica was going bust, that's public knowledge. A change of owner, new products and a great future. That's positive Jaap.
Here another jaapv was commenting on the battery problems only 5 days ago.
I've just been back through this thread and the only reference to a drastically improved M9 is your own comment.
Can your dealer advise the sales and production numbers for the M8 then?
I suspect your reading comments about flaws and turning them into negatives yourself. As someone who's spent many years developing products for companies (does DAF ring a bell?) I can assure that developing products to meet the market demands is a very 'positive' process.
I recently was shooting in a derelict factory and came across a sign that read "We are satisfied with our product". How long will Leica camera division survive if the M8 doesn't change and how much will it change in a 5/10 year period?
2 years ago the banks were in and Leica was going bust, that's public knowledge. A change of owner, new products and a great future. That's positive Jaap.
Attachments
rolo
Established
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
rolo said:No sudden death for 6 months - you must be missing some of the problem posts.
Here another jaapv was commenting on the battery problems only 5 days ago.
I've just been back through this thread and the only reference to a drastically improved M9 is your own comment.
Can your dealer advise the sales and production numbers for the M8 then?
I suspect your reading comments about flaws and turning them into negatives yourself. As someone who's spent many years developing products for companies (does DAF ring a bell?) I can assure that developing products to meet the market demands is a very 'positive' process.
I recently was shooting in a derelict factory and came across a sign that read "We are satisfied with our product". How long will Leica camera division survive if the M8 doesn't change and how much will it change in a 5/10 year period?
2 years ago the banks were in and Leica was going bust, that's public knowledge. A change of owner, new products and a great future. That's positive Jaap.
Huh? This is about covering the camera with new leather...
rolo said:
And this is about battery problems, my suggestion that he left the camera on and the shutter half depressed.
Sorry, you've lost me completely here.
SDS was a transistor failing in a run of cameras, and had nothing to do with either battery problems, depressing the shutter button in the bag or covering the body with new leather......
And btw, most battery problems, of which we have seen a few, can be traced back to incorrectly conditioning the batteries in the first place, which in turn is caused by playing with the camera before reading the manual....
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rolo
Established
jaapv said:
Oh dear me ...... !
The leather issue was a side concern. The thread was about battery performance as shown on the attached.
You commented on that thread on 2nd January 2008, which in my reckoning is within the last 6 months. I can go back and discover many issues that you deny. The above were just two where you had posted. There will be many more, I assure you.
Not sure what is going on here Jaap, but I walk a pretty straight line and appreciate others doing the same.
Attachments
rolo
Established
the missing attachment.
Doesn't want to upload, so here's the opening post.
Solms Now I have a problem
Well all my experiences with the M8 have been very good up until this morning.
I now have a M8 that does not turn on when you turn the switch from Off to S, C or timer. I now have to hit the shutter button to get the camera to turn on.
This happend right when I changed batteries from one that had 1 bar left on the meter to one that was fully charged. No matter which battery I use of the 4 Leica batteries I have, 3 fully charged and the one I was going to replace, the camera still needs the shutter button to be pushed before the camera turns on.
I am letting the camera drain down the battery that had 1 bar left and see if a reset of the camera fixes this.
This just S&*Ks.
Doesn't want to upload, so here's the opening post.
Solms Now I have a problem
Well all my experiences with the M8 have been very good up until this morning.
I now have a M8 that does not turn on when you turn the switch from Off to S, C or timer. I now have to hit the shutter button to get the camera to turn on.
This happend right when I changed batteries from one that had 1 bar left on the meter to one that was fully charged. No matter which battery I use of the 4 Leica batteries I have, 3 fully charged and the one I was going to replace, the camera still needs the shutter button to be pushed before the camera turns on.
I am letting the camera drain down the battery that had 1 bar left and see if a reset of the camera fixes this.
This just S&*Ks.
Attachments
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
I'll save you the trouble - you can find over a dozen posts on battery problems by me, even one or two threads. But it still is quite beyond me what that has to do with sudden death. Also, a camera with sds cannot be reset. The one in the thread you quote now recovered after a reset. I am beginning to suspect that battery failure is being confused with sudden death here.
by the way, it is more practical to link to threads instead of posting nearly illegible jpegs. Another benefit is that we can judge the whole thread, instead of out-of-context snippets.
by the way, it is more practical to link to threads instead of posting nearly illegible jpegs. Another benefit is that we can judge the whole thread, instead of out-of-context snippets.
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rolo
Established
sitemistic said:
WOW !
Amazing lengths SOB will go to. Lies, insults, twisting and turning.
Bet he can't lie straight in bed.
Kim Coxon
Moderator
OK,
Discuss your own views on the future of the M8 to your hearts content. However, please bear in mind that others may well hold a different but no less valid "view" from your own.
Most importantly, please respect that others may think differently and keep the personal comments out of the thread.
Kim
Discuss your own views on the future of the M8 to your hearts content. However, please bear in mind that others may well hold a different but no less valid "view" from your own.
Most importantly, please respect that others may think differently and keep the personal comments out of the thread.
Kim
Tuolumne
Veteran
This thread has been all over the place. I am just happy to report that I like and am satisfied with my R-D1. Therefore, I plan to leave well enough alone for once and stick with it until such time that I am no longer satisfied with it. Ahhhh...I am finally done.
/T
/T
infocusf8@earthlink.
Established
Progress
Progress
The facts came from a recent discussion between a Leica Country CEO and an acquaintance of mine who is involved in Leica retailing. His Leica sales have come to a complete halt and he needed to understand what the future was. He was completely satisfied with the response and the action plan. It's very positive, not negative. Why do M8 owners fear the future development of the camera ?? Do they want the company to stand still ? Do they think they bought a product that will be unchanged and that Leica will upgrade their M8's with all future changes ?
The opinions are a result of me assessing the situation and expressing my thoughts just as others are doing here. I truly believe that the M8 is a breakthrough product, but it's the first version and the first version rarely survives when so much of the margin is absorbed by the cost of replacing the product for reliability issues, continually fixing software and this lens compatibility is hurting the company's reputation for quality glass. The company is looking forward, is developing software and hardware and wants to stop fixing the current product. The sooner the better for all.
I don't read that anyone here has been saying that Leica shouldn't move ahead and at some point introduce a new model digital M. The M8 came under instant attack for its perceived flaws and the call for a new camera to replace it has been a mantra since. What I see on a daily basis in retail are camera users (notice I didn't say photographers) who are looking for a panacea to make their photographs better. Customers spend thousands on bodies and lenses in one system or another then want to dump their equipment for another system because they still aren't satisfied with their photographs. Although it fuels the retail sector, and I have no complaints since it has provided me with a living, it is a fruitless quest unless one stops at a point in time and really learns more about the craft and how to really bring out the best in what they have. The M8 has its weaknesses and it also has its strengths. What can a photographer do with weaknesses? Well, what's wrong with doing what good photographers have always done learn to turn the weaknesses into a strength. Good photographers learn to do it with conditions, film, equipment, processing and what they have at hand (duct tape being a good example). Constantly wishing for that new camera without really exploring what the one you have has to offer is a fruitless endeavor. Perhaps some of the users on this forum have not been stubbornly trying to tell you that they believe their M8's are the best camera around, or that it shouldn't or won't be replaced but that it is the best camera for them and you should respect that as you would want your choices to be respected. If you haven't owned or used an M8 to explore its potential how can anyone realistically listen to someone calling for its replacement?
As far as your information from a Leica CEO I'm surprised at that as our Leica rep told us that he was told that if any one in Leica divulged any information regarding any of Leicas R&D he would be fired. If this CEO is divulging this kind of information then it would seem a breach in corporate policy or information that is available to all Leica representatives.
Progress
The facts came from a recent discussion between a Leica Country CEO and an acquaintance of mine who is involved in Leica retailing. His Leica sales have come to a complete halt and he needed to understand what the future was. He was completely satisfied with the response and the action plan. It's very positive, not negative. Why do M8 owners fear the future development of the camera ?? Do they want the company to stand still ? Do they think they bought a product that will be unchanged and that Leica will upgrade their M8's with all future changes ?
The opinions are a result of me assessing the situation and expressing my thoughts just as others are doing here. I truly believe that the M8 is a breakthrough product, but it's the first version and the first version rarely survives when so much of the margin is absorbed by the cost of replacing the product for reliability issues, continually fixing software and this lens compatibility is hurting the company's reputation for quality glass. The company is looking forward, is developing software and hardware and wants to stop fixing the current product. The sooner the better for all.
I don't read that anyone here has been saying that Leica shouldn't move ahead and at some point introduce a new model digital M. The M8 came under instant attack for its perceived flaws and the call for a new camera to replace it has been a mantra since. What I see on a daily basis in retail are camera users (notice I didn't say photographers) who are looking for a panacea to make their photographs better. Customers spend thousands on bodies and lenses in one system or another then want to dump their equipment for another system because they still aren't satisfied with their photographs. Although it fuels the retail sector, and I have no complaints since it has provided me with a living, it is a fruitless quest unless one stops at a point in time and really learns more about the craft and how to really bring out the best in what they have. The M8 has its weaknesses and it also has its strengths. What can a photographer do with weaknesses? Well, what's wrong with doing what good photographers have always done learn to turn the weaknesses into a strength. Good photographers learn to do it with conditions, film, equipment, processing and what they have at hand (duct tape being a good example). Constantly wishing for that new camera without really exploring what the one you have has to offer is a fruitless endeavor. Perhaps some of the users on this forum have not been stubbornly trying to tell you that they believe their M8's are the best camera around, or that it shouldn't or won't be replaced but that it is the best camera for them and you should respect that as you would want your choices to be respected. If you haven't owned or used an M8 to explore its potential how can anyone realistically listen to someone calling for its replacement?
As far as your information from a Leica CEO I'm surprised at that as our Leica rep told us that he was told that if any one in Leica divulged any information regarding any of Leicas R&D he would be fired. If this CEO is divulging this kind of information then it would seem a breach in corporate policy or information that is available to all Leica representatives.
kbg32
neo-romanticist
No camera is perfect. Take what you can and work with it. As for the M8 not being a professional tool, bollocks.
SR1
Established
I have been reading this thread with interest and felt I had to comment. As a long time Canon EOS user, both film and digital, my needs changed recently when I started travelling to more cities on business. If I'm staying over i like to spend the evenings on some street photography and the Canons are too conspicuous, especially in London. I don't have much time for digital compacts and opted to buy a Leica. Initally I did look at the M8 but int he end opted for a good used M6 which I am very happy with.
The reason I rejected the M8 is the number of flaws in it. breakdowns and software limitations are just one of those things. They shouldn't happen but they do. I can live with that provided the manufacturer sorts them out which I am sure Leica would do.
What I cannot accept is the solution to the magenta cast problem. When you are expected to pay £3000 for a camera and then told you need to put filters in front of your lenses to correct a flaw they can't fix is a joke.
What leaves me speechless is the fact that some posters here seem to think this is acceptable.
Are you happy to pay thousands of pound or dollars for the best glass and then put a filter in front of it?
I am all for company loyalty provided that company looks after is customers and lets face it, without those customers who will buy anything Leica puts to market without question, the company would definately have gone the way of the Dodo.
Will there be an M9? There has to be, even if it is just a properly fixed M8 with a name change to try and lose the bad press. And when the M9 does arrive, the secondhand value of the M8 must surely drop through the floor.
Leica need to learn that the days of producing high quality product that last a lifetime just doesn't work in the digital world.
I wear a mechanical watch, I use a 30 year old fountain pen, I ride an old fashioned simple motorbike and I now use a 12 year old M6 which I expect to last the rest of my life.
Electronics last on average 15 years, so whats the point of building a camera to last a lifetime and putting technology in it which is likely to fail within 15 years. If the technology is flawed to start off with, the real world value of the M8 is nothing.
I believe in buying quality but if they want me to buy a digital M, then it s going to have to be cheaper and it needs to work properly.
After all, its your money there taking and how will they be persuaded to fix their poor design if they know people will buy flawed products anyway?
The reason I rejected the M8 is the number of flaws in it. breakdowns and software limitations are just one of those things. They shouldn't happen but they do. I can live with that provided the manufacturer sorts them out which I am sure Leica would do.
What I cannot accept is the solution to the magenta cast problem. When you are expected to pay £3000 for a camera and then told you need to put filters in front of your lenses to correct a flaw they can't fix is a joke.
What leaves me speechless is the fact that some posters here seem to think this is acceptable.
Are you happy to pay thousands of pound or dollars for the best glass and then put a filter in front of it?
I am all for company loyalty provided that company looks after is customers and lets face it, without those customers who will buy anything Leica puts to market without question, the company would definately have gone the way of the Dodo.
Will there be an M9? There has to be, even if it is just a properly fixed M8 with a name change to try and lose the bad press. And when the M9 does arrive, the secondhand value of the M8 must surely drop through the floor.
Leica need to learn that the days of producing high quality product that last a lifetime just doesn't work in the digital world.
I wear a mechanical watch, I use a 30 year old fountain pen, I ride an old fashioned simple motorbike and I now use a 12 year old M6 which I expect to last the rest of my life.
Electronics last on average 15 years, so whats the point of building a camera to last a lifetime and putting technology in it which is likely to fail within 15 years. If the technology is flawed to start off with, the real world value of the M8 is nothing.
I believe in buying quality but if they want me to buy a digital M, then it s going to have to be cheaper and it needs to work properly.
After all, its your money there taking and how will they be persuaded to fix their poor design if they know people will buy flawed products anyway?
sunsworth
Well-known
SR1 said:
Guess you haven't shot much b&w.
I'd prefer there not to be a need for the filters, but IMHO it's a small price to pay in order to be able to use my Leica lenses on a rangefinder body. The image quality is fantastic, I haven't used my Canon 5D since buying the M8 last January.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
SR1 said:
I'm rather surprised that you are prepared to accept that there has to be a piece of glass in front of your sensor, the most expensive part of your DSLR, no, three pieces of glass, one of which is matte.
It seems a bit hard to comprehend that there must be an IR filter in the path of the light somewhere in a sensor based camera. I find the solution Leica chose in front of the lens, which is the optimal place in a rangefinder (except for next to the diaphragm, which is dificult to realise with an existing lens line)and on top of that can be removed if not needed the best solution imaginable, reflection warts and all.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
It is nice of you to say so.sitemistic said:
My take is that all these comparisons are a bit of BS. Any top-of-the-line Canon, Nikon or Leica will produce an image quality that is miles beyond anything 99% of us need. Marginal differences need not concern us. The look is a bit different, and my line of preference is 1.Leica, 2. Nikon, 3. Canon. But that is just me. That that M8 is d@#n good is a bonus as it is the only digital rangefinder on the market.SR1
Established
Jaap,
I find the solution Leica chose in front of the lens, which is the optimal place in a rangefinder (except for next to the diaphragm, which is dificult to realise with an existing lens line)and on top of that can be removed if not needed the best solution imaginable, reflection warts and all.
Why are you defending a fix by Leica which was only introduced after the problem was discovered. If there hadn't have been a problem with the M8, they would not have suggested using such filters.
Presumably when they launch the M9 which won't need to use fliters, you will be complaining they have compromised the design!
It's a good example of the kind of strange logic I was alluding to in my first post
I find the solution Leica chose in front of the lens, which is the optimal place in a rangefinder (except for next to the diaphragm, which is dificult to realise with an existing lens line)and on top of that can be removed if not needed the best solution imaginable, reflection warts and all.
Why are you defending a fix by Leica which was only introduced after the problem was discovered. If there hadn't have been a problem with the M8, they would not have suggested using such filters.
Presumably when they launch the M9 which won't need to use fliters, you will be complaining they have compromised the design!
It's a good example of the kind of strange logic I was alluding to in my first post
SR1
Established
Now thats not the kind of behaviour you would expect from a company with a loyal customer base.
I genuinely feel for Leica (if you consider Leica to be the company, its history and its customer base) because they do produce the best cameras in the world and the onyl way I see them moving forward in the long term would be a merger with someone like Panasonic.
...and that would be a sad day indeed
I genuinely feel for Leica (if you consider Leica to be the company, its history and its customer base) because they do produce the best cameras in the world and the onyl way I see them moving forward in the long term would be a merger with someone like Panasonic.
...and that would be a sad day indeed
DWeston
DWeston
Another Opinion...
Another Opinion...
Based on no inside info or any other kind of info, just an overview of the digital camera industry for the last 7 yrs in digital cameras of all sorts. Neither Canon or Nikon, the big two companies can afford to update their $4000+ cameras more then once every 2-3yrs at best to any significant extent. Leica, I believe is smaller still...how can they update, obsolete, the M8 to an M9 so soon. Just doubt we will see that quite yet. Come out with a smaller body, cheaper camera of less spec, OK. That I could buy in thought. Come out with a new FF M camera, for close to the $5-6K. I don't see it at that price point. In my mind that would be priced like a 1DS3 or what ever the new Nikon D3X(20+mp) camera will be. Figure more like $8-10K. If it is there, it is not competeing with the M8 anymore then the D3 will with its big brother.
I see a replacement for the DMR more likely, it is time and in need, if not for image quality then UI issues. It was dated when it came out, it was removed from the market for a reason.
After 9 mos with my M8, I am getting the hang of it, it took firmware updates and filter to fix some of it. If they could get the WB issues taken care of, I would be truly a happy Leica user, I am mostly anyway. JMHO....YMMV, Don
Another Opinion...
Based on no inside info or any other kind of info, just an overview of the digital camera industry for the last 7 yrs in digital cameras of all sorts. Neither Canon or Nikon, the big two companies can afford to update their $4000+ cameras more then once every 2-3yrs at best to any significant extent. Leica, I believe is smaller still...how can they update, obsolete, the M8 to an M9 so soon. Just doubt we will see that quite yet. Come out with a smaller body, cheaper camera of less spec, OK. That I could buy in thought. Come out with a new FF M camera, for close to the $5-6K. I don't see it at that price point. In my mind that would be priced like a 1DS3 or what ever the new Nikon D3X(20+mp) camera will be. Figure more like $8-10K. If it is there, it is not competeing with the M8 anymore then the D3 will with its big brother.
I see a replacement for the DMR more likely, it is time and in need, if not for image quality then UI issues. It was dated when it came out, it was removed from the market for a reason.
After 9 mos with my M8, I am getting the hang of it, it took firmware updates and filter to fix some of it. If they could get the WB issues taken care of, I would be truly a happy Leica user, I am mostly anyway. JMHO....YMMV, Don
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
sitemistic said:
Somewhere in the back of my mind I somehow have the same nagging feeling. But after long consideration I think the explanation that they knew it more or less, but given that most of the beta testers took the camera out in summer, when these shifts are normally less apparent, and the fact that nobody cared that the Nikon D70 and the Epson RD1, amongst others show the same kind of shift in a lesser degree, they thought it would not be a problem (stupidly and mistakenly so), is the most likely one.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
SR1 said:
I have been through the whole rigmarole, being one of the first M8 users, and I (see my post above) attribute it to marketing blunders-and/or misjudgement-and/or miscommunication between R&D and sales. That was the flaw.
Don't forget that respected testers in the first month did not see it either. The only reason I personally found out within 24 hours was because I took a flash photograph of a black cat sitting on the lap of my wife wearing a black synthetic blouse, and I had been through the theory with a Nikon owner some time before. That a filter in front of the sensor is impossible for a rangefinder camera at this point of technology is undisputable, so if you want to call the laws of physics a flaw, well.....
I think Leica should leave the sensor as lightly filtered as possible and bring out a line of lenses with internal filtering. I don't see much strange in that logic.
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