M8 migration to M9 or every other generation (M9.2 or M10)?

E

eleskin

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I have a very well used M8 with absolutely no issues (40,000 plus exposures so far since I bought it in April 2007), and it has served me just as well as any camera I have ever owned (M6,M4-2,Fui GSW 690, Rolleiflex,4x5,Pentax GSW690, etc,,,) and has even surpassed what my film cameras can do in many situations. A good friend od mine who is also a pro thinks it makes more sense to skip the next generation of camera and buy every other generation. For me, this means using my M8 and then buying the M9.2 or M10. Why? There are many reasons. First, the sensor of the M8 and M9 are very close in performance, and the 1.33x crop of the M8 is not that huge compared to other cameras. The M9 just gave us a bigger M8 sensor with some improvements, but not many thousands of dollars worth (I can buy another M8 for 2K - I need a second one as a backup-so this makes economic sense). If the M10 which is sure to come, has much greater high ISO performance and better dynamic range, no color issues with ultra wides (Leica and Voigtlander lenses) that would be a huge step and would justify the price for me. It seems to me if one did not own an M8, the M9 is much easier to justify. If one owns an M8 and is happy, the M9 is much harder to justify (the performance difference between the two cameras is not that great - only the full frame ability and increased resolution is with some improvement in ISO, but not a big improvement).

So I am currently looking for a second M8 (M8.2 or so) feeling that for a backup, its price can be justified. I originally planed for the M8 I have to be my backup to a new M9, but I think a second M8 makes more sense for now. In a few years, I may consider a used M9 and a new M10. I will still have my M8' as well. Backup on backup, cost effective - squeezing the most out of the digital M system with an economic plan that makes sense to me.

So how many of you never buy the next great thing all the time and wait to buy every other generation of camera? I do not trade my car in every year or two for that matter for the same reasons.
 
I forgot to mention that even though the M9 is getting good reviews, there are reports of bugs in the camera, so it is still evolving technologically. The next generation sensor after the M9 should come closer to a digital M for the generations. There are many who are now claiming we are reaching the physical limits of sensor technology. The M9 is behind that development curve by some years, so the M10 might become the new digital M3, meaning for film, the M3 is just as good today as it was in decades past due to better films and lenses. The sensor could mature enough that we will start forgetting about these issues of resolution, dynamic range, and high ISO. The concentration will then fall on the lenses and photographs they produce. For the user of any camera, and lovers of pure photography, that will be a great day, and it is sure to come soon. Here, Leica is always highly regarded (Lenses more than the camera). What I am saying is the concentration will be more on the lenses as the camera performance will be taken as a given. That would be a return to where Leica is very strong, and why I bought an M in the first place!! THE GLASS!!!!!
 
I would like to see some real Datasheets for the CMOS sensors used in Nikon and Canon DSLR's. There is probably more of a difference in signal processing capability of the larger cameras equipped with large batteries than there is in the dynamic range of the sensors. Some post-processing software for noise reduction gets rave reviews on other sites, I will have to check it out with ISO 2500 of the M8. So far, I just do not see a huge problem with the High-ISO performance of my late-production M8.
 
My (30k+ actuations) M8 has served me very well.
Not that I'm shopping for cameras at the moment but if I was I'd choose to buy a second M8 body as opposed to trading it in for an M9.
 
This is exactly the route that I took. I waited until the bugs and price on the M8 came down and picked up one with an upgraded shutter. Considered trading up to the M9, but the limited availability gave me time to really think about my needs, and in the end, a second M8 body made more sense. In fact, the second body is non-upgraded, which is even cheaper, and it complements my first body quite well - it's so nice having 1/8000 for outdoor use where shutter noise is less of an issue.

I've learned to work around the high iso issues, really not difficult to clean up in post, and I'm quite happy with my set-up, to the point where I am not sure that I really even need the "next generation" when it eventually appears - although I will surely lust after it regardless of my actual needs. :D
 
A crop sensor camera is o.k. until you've used a FF digital camera. The difference in image quality is significant. M9 or dSLR. Don't try an M9! ;)
 
Having tried all three, I found the M8.2 a very significant improvement on the M8, and the M9 to be a full-frame version of the M8.2. The jump to full frame strikes me as far more significant than whatever they can do in an M9.2 or M10. As Pickett Wilson says, the difference in image quality is significant, and you shouldn't try an M9 unless you are prepared to buy one.

Cheers,

R.
 
dogberryjr said:
An M9 is $7000 new. What's the M10 going to be? $8500-9000?
Click to expand...

A better question might be, how much will a used M9 be when an M10 come out and the "gotta have the latest" crowd puts them on eBay to fund their next purchase?

You're just 1 generation behind and you get peace of mind knowing that any bugs and issues will have been discovered for the people who were the early adopters (and hopefully fixed).
 
I was entirely satisfied with my M8 except one thing: it wasn't full frame. The other 1/3 of the frame makes all that much of a difference.

Whether 7k is worth it or not is entirely up to the shooter. For me it was no brainer because my style is somewhat dependent on the outside irregularities of the frame.

Will I get the M10 when it comes out? Probably. Eating nothing but Ramen noodles roughens up the edges a bit anyways and helps bring out that "artist" in a person. If I've been taught one thing in life that's uncertain, it's the future. And besides, don't you all know that the world is going to end in 2012? :)
 
those waiting M10 probably are going to have long wait ahead them.

when M9 came, some were bashing Leica because it was new model only 3 years after M8. they should have waited a decade to keep their traditions ! :D
 
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Well I upgraded to a M9 and it will probably be my last camera upgrade. I can not imagine anything I actually need being added. It is better than the M8 I have, but in effect I was perfectly happy with my M8 and apart from the extra pixels giving more cropping possibilities I do not consider the difference between M8 and M9 to be that great, and am surprised some other list members are so bowled over by the bigger sensor.
My view is that better than the M9 is not necessary for print sizes up to A3+, the largest I make. Smaller than that it is already better than needed.
My first FF digital was a Canon EOS 1Ds mk2 in 2004 BTW. I only rarely use super wide angle lenses, the only unbeatable benefit of the bigger sensors IMO.
 
17"x22" Prints

17"x22" Prints

I had a chance to shoot with the M9 and my own glass, and let me tell you, I cannot see much of a difference between the M8 and M9. I have printed in the darkroom since the 1980's and my standard exhibition size was always 16"x20" fiber glossy. My M8 blows away my Fuji GSW 690 in many cases. In fact, I thought my M8 files were sharper and the M9 mushy in some cases. I mostly do black and white, so maybe M8 vs M9 is not a big deal. I showed some 22"x 17" prints to another friend who is also a photographer and he told me comparing prints from the M8 vs. M9 was like comparing apples to oranges. I agree with him.
 
Don't know about the M9. But the difference between my 50D and original 5D is significant. And the difference between the 50D and the 5DII is tremendous. The subjective quality of the 5D and 5DII is daylight and dark with the 50D.
 
I also started with the D30, which produced way better photos then it had any right to considering its resolution. I've have very nice looking 13x19" prints from it. It was compromised in many ways, but image quality really wasn't one of them.
 
eleskin said:
I have a very well used M8 with absolutely no issues (40,000 plus exposures so far since I bought it in April 2007), and it has served me just as well as any camera I have ever owned (M6,M4-2,Fui GSW 690, Rolleiflex,4x5,Pentax GSW690, etc,,,) and has even surpassed what my film cameras can do in many situations. A good friend od mine who is also a pro thinks it makes more sense to skip the next generation of camera and buy every other generation. For me, this means using my M8 and then buying the M9.2 or M10. Why? There are many reasons. First, the sensor of the M8 and M9 are very close in performance, and the 1.33x crop of the M8 is not that huge compared to other cameras. The M9 just gave us a bigger M8 sensor with some improvements, but not many thousands of dollars worth (I can buy another M8 for 2K - I need a second one as a backup-so this makes economic sense). If the M10 which is sure to come, has much greater high ISO performance and better dynamic range, no color issues with ultra wides (Leica and Voigtlander lenses) that would be a huge step and would justify the price for me. It seems to me if one did not own an M8, the M9 is much easier to justify. If one owns an M8 and is happy, the M9 is much harder to justify (the performance difference between the two cameras is not that great - only the full frame ability and increased resolution is with some improvement in ISO, but not a big improvement).

So I am currently looking for a second M8 (M8.2 or so) feeling that for a backup, its price can be justified. I originally planed for the M8 I have to be my backup to a new M9, but I think a second M8 makes more sense for now. In a few years, I may consider a used M9 and a new M10. I will still have my M8' as well. Backup on backup, cost effective - squeezing the most out of the digital M system with an economic plan that makes sense to me.

So how many of you never buy the next great thing all the time and wait to buy every other generation of camera? I do not trade my car in every year or two for that matter for the same reasons.
Click to expand...

Shouldn't we just wait and see what those hypothetical M9.2/M10 are like before we start asking questions like these?
 
Pickett Wilson said:
A crop sensor camera is o.k. until you've used a FF digital camera. The difference in image quality is significant. M9 or dSLR. Don't try an M9! ;)
Click to expand...

I tried an M9 and I'm glad I did, because now I'm much more satisfied to wait. In terms of parameters that are measurable and quantifiable, the difference in image quality is not large. Whether the difference is "significant", is a personal value judgment that can't be argued with of course.


Brian Puccio said:
A better question might be, how much will a used M9 be when an M10 come out and the "gotta have the latest" crowd puts them on eBay to fund their next purchase?

You're just 1 generation behind and you get peace of mind knowing that any bugs and issues will have been discovered for the people who were the early adopters (and hopefully fixed).
Click to expand...

We think alike. I've always stayed one generation behind with digital cameras, and as a result have not lost much money upgrading. The M8 was the first digital camera I ever bought new. I felt I needed to make that purchase, because one generation behind was an Epson, I had one, and with apologies to it's devotees, I didn't care for it. From here forward I will gladly stay a generation behind with Leica digitals and save 50%. My Canon 5D (price at release, $3300) cost me $1300 (refurb, like-new cond.) when everyone was flocking to the MK II. I have no desire to get the MK-II until there's a Mk-III.
 
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kbg32 said:
I think the wait for the next generation Leica M digital will be significant.
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Dear Keith,

That's my suspicion too. What improvements are they likely to make? (Not, note, "What improvements would we like to see?"). And they have the S2 to develop and sell.

Cheers,

R.
 
I am happy with the M9. Finally back to Leica after many years. I have the 5D, 5DII and the 7D and other cameras and find the M9 image quality excellent. Whatever fits the needs. I normally shoot with 2 or 3 cameras and will most likely shoot now with 2 SLR's and the M9 when working and otherwise, whatever fits what I want to shoot. It's all good. :^)
 
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