oris642
natural person
Except the United States is not a democracy, despite the repeated assurances by George Bush that it is. It's a republic. While I'm not American, I'm always surprised at the number of Americans who don't know this. Guess they teach them other things in school these days.....
Olsen
Well-known
A republic could well be a democracy. (Loosely translated democracy means 'people rule'). It is characterised by 'one man, one vote'. But now good a democracy is functioning is dependent on a lot of factors. A lot of nations claim that they do have 'freedom' and 'democracy'. The degree of freedom and democracy vary and are dependant on a lot of factors. - Like the quality of information that the voters base their decisions on. Etc.
John Camp
Well-known
The people who think saving to buy a Leica, while living on a limited income, is foolish, well, it may be, for them. People have to set priorities, and it's very difficult really to know when a person is making a mistake, because mistakes are not clear and obvious. Suppose a person scrapes and saves and buys an M8 and his young daughter has to wear second-hand clothes for the first four years of her life, but then he achieves a certain success and is suddenly flush, and can send his daughter to the best schools...where was the mistake? Sometimes mistakes and good decisions can only be discerned in retrospect. Pablo Picasso's father was an art teacher and not-very-good painter who thought his son was making a disastrous decision by going to Paris, when he could have had some kind of a career as a portrait and history painter, and teacher, in Spain...So who knows what an M8 might mean to somebody, of the effects it might have on an individual life?
JC
JC
Tuolumne
Veteran
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Or:
Own your house outright. Cooking your own food I take for granted: it's the easiest way ti get good meals. 'Junker' car? What's wrong with good quality, old but well maintained? I have a 36 year old Land Rover and a 30 year old BMW motorcycle. Cell phones cost next to nothing; I doubt my wife and I spend $200 a year on them. No cable TV? No loss; we don't even watch TV. Shoes resoled? If you buy decent shoes, it makes sense: I had one pair of Portuguese boots resoled 5 times. Very comfortable they were, too.
In other words, organize your life so you can live it your way, instead of wasting money on consumer garbage, cheap throwaway shoes, additive-laden processed food, mindless television and rustbucket new cars.
Cheers,
R.
anglophone1
Well-known
As we are talking USD [north american peso] USD 357,000 isn't very much, I really need you to put in another two or three more upper bands and then I will be able to vote ;-)
Don't own an M8 though, just 3x Rd1s.
C
Don't own an M8 though, just 3x Rd1s.
C
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Olsen
Well-known
Since we are into 'giving good advice on how to live' here, I have a soap box statement to make to you younger people here; be very careful in the times to come. The crash at Wall Street (et al) means trouble ahead. - As I have warned you before...
Take an advice from an old grey stone that has been around for a while:
Pay down your debt. Fast as hell. Focus intensely on this. Interest rate will go up. So will prices while your salary will be under pressure. You even might loose your job. I have been through several similar crisis (but possibly not as bad as this one) in 74', 82', 89' and 98'.
We here might 'advice' you to buy a M8. Like drug addicts we keep pushing 'the stuff' up in the face of good friends. But avoid buying a M8 - unless you are absolutely sure that you can carry the financial burden - or make a very favourable 2.hand deal. Several such deals just might be popping up soon. Just wait and see.
Take an advice from an old grey stone that has been around for a while:
Pay down your debt. Fast as hell. Focus intensely on this. Interest rate will go up. So will prices while your salary will be under pressure. You even might loose your job. I have been through several similar crisis (but possibly not as bad as this one) in 74', 82', 89' and 98'.
We here might 'advice' you to buy a M8. Like drug addicts we keep pushing 'the stuff' up in the face of good friends. But avoid buying a M8 - unless you are absolutely sure that you can carry the financial burden - or make a very favourable 2.hand deal. Several such deals just might be popping up soon. Just wait and see.
jke
Well-known
You asked a question:
And I gave you an answer.
You brought up democracy.
That sounds like politics to me. But we'll let hide if you like. See how convenient privacy is, even in a democracy?
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
we all know it's a sensitive issue.
I'll need to change my annual income from U.S. dollars to UK Sterling Pounds. Very soon, if the Republicans keep on having their "no government is good government" (like in Iraq), the U.S. dollar will be worth less than Zimbabwe's agrodollars.
So, in agrodollars, I'm a multimultimultimultimultibillionaire. :angel:
Z
zeezea
Guest
You asked a question:
And I gave you an answer.
You brought up democracy.
That sounds like politics to me. But we'll let hide if you like. See how convenient privacy is, even in a democracy?
BRAVO !!
Whenever I follow threads that go where this one is going, I tend to wonder at what point the opinions of our resident political and economic savants morph into agenda.
It`s really getting depressing.
Regards, and I think I`ll take a short vacation from the forum.
Al
usayit
Well-known
Living in the NYC area, people's salaries really don't go very far... its pretty sad actually when the typical professional can only afford what is considered a starter home now-a-days (if that's even possible). The "how can you afford that" question comes up occasionally and my answer is simple; I don't live in a big home (own .. 2 bed 1 bath), I don't drive an expensive car (Dodge), I don't wear expensive cloths (Kohls/Target), I don't even have flat panel TV, I am reasonable with everything and I.. at times... work two jobs (like currently). I pick and choose my vices and save up for them. Simple as that. Oh yes... my wife and son are well taken care of.
Funny thing... almost each and every time someone asks me that question, that person is the exact opposite; high class apartment, expensive watch, expensive car, huge debt to cover all their "toys". I usually mention that the interest they pay alone is more than my camera+lenses.
Everything in moderation.......
Like Olsen, definitely pay down the debt
Unlike Olsen, I wouldn't say "don't buy the M8". Go ahead buy the M8 if you can afford it BUT don't go buy the M8 AND the TV AND the CAR AND the new Watch....
Funny thing... almost each and every time someone asks me that question, that person is the exact opposite; high class apartment, expensive watch, expensive car, huge debt to cover all their "toys". I usually mention that the interest they pay alone is more than my camera+lenses.
Everything in moderation.......
Like Olsen, definitely pay down the debt
Unlike Olsen, I wouldn't say "don't buy the M8". Go ahead buy the M8 if you can afford it BUT don't go buy the M8 AND the TV AND the CAR AND the new Watch....
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
beyond semantics (demos = people, cratos = power) democracy is an ill-defined thing.
Even in its very original shape, when greek invented it and "applied" it, it did not clash e.g. with slavery
Even in its very original shape, when greek invented it and "applied" it, it did not clash e.g. with slavery
ClaremontPhoto
Jon Claremont
I would have seen it from another perspective: it's Leica's job to keep discerning photographers choosing to use their products.
Andrew Sowerby
Well-known
OT: I personally think that every citizen's medical information should be published on the internet. Such information is important if health care issues are being discussed and to have a meaningful political debate. And it is the only way you can be sure that your health care issues have been treated fairly compared to others.
Matt(1pt4)
Established
Roger, in my case, junker car means a 15 year old ugly Toyota in good mechanical shape, so I think we agree on the principle. Broadly, there can be money for all sorts of luxuries as long as you don't fritter your money away. My Birkenstocks are on their fifth resoling and showing no signs of slowing down.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
mikeseb
Member
The only fair way to treat "tax issues" is to tax everyone an identical percentage of his/her income, if you must have an income tax.
Even better, devise a tax system that doesn't require an intrusive government agency storing petabytes of private information about its citizens.
Even better, devise a tax system that doesn't require an intrusive government agency storing petabytes of private information about its citizens.
Z
zeezea
Guest
Agenda
Agenda
Dear Roger,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply, I`ll try to explain more fully.
1. How do you distinguish between opinion and agenda?
I don`t believe there is a universal standard for that. That`s why I
used the phrase...." I wonder at what point".....not you or they wonder.
Since it is then subjective, I can only be an authority on my own estimation.
If over the course of hundreds/thousands of a person`s posts, the same
political opinions are gratuitously offered, then I consider that agenda.
2. And what`s wrong with an agenda?
Absolutely nothing. Per se.
Rf Forum is a photographic forum. I came here in order to get back (after
a very,very long time) into RF photography. I certainly did not come here to
be politicaly lectured, educated and/or re-educated. I (there`s that word again), would not want to impose that on fellow members.
As been mentioned by others before, perhaps it it better to take those
views to forums that are dedicated to political opinion. The benefits of
lively debate may be better served on a site that attracts posters
who go there go there for that purpose.
3. One of my agendas, for example,is to help keep Leica in business.
No conflict there. Leica`s health is a photographic concern. Actually,
I love Leicas. I have a M4-2 (plus CV Bessa), and if I had to have only one
camera, it would be a "M". Not everyone feels that way, but thats good too.
If someone is paying for their own eqipment, it doesn`t matter what I or anyone else thinks of their choice. Shouldn`t we all be happy that a fellow member is using something they enjoy and feel comfortable with?
Please excuse my long- winded repsonse. I did not start out with that
purpose. It`s just saddening to me that we had to go off on a tangent.
Regards - and I`ll try to keep my future posts infrequent,
Al
Agenda
Dear Roger,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply, I`ll try to explain more fully.
1. How do you distinguish between opinion and agenda?
I don`t believe there is a universal standard for that. That`s why I
used the phrase...." I wonder at what point".....not you or they wonder.
Since it is then subjective, I can only be an authority on my own estimation.
If over the course of hundreds/thousands of a person`s posts, the same
political opinions are gratuitously offered, then I consider that agenda.
2. And what`s wrong with an agenda?
Absolutely nothing. Per se.
Rf Forum is a photographic forum. I came here in order to get back (after
a very,very long time) into RF photography. I certainly did not come here to
be politicaly lectured, educated and/or re-educated. I (there`s that word again), would not want to impose that on fellow members.
As been mentioned by others before, perhaps it it better to take those
views to forums that are dedicated to political opinion. The benefits of
lively debate may be better served on a site that attracts posters
who go there go there for that purpose.
3. One of my agendas, for example,is to help keep Leica in business.
No conflict there. Leica`s health is a photographic concern. Actually,
I love Leicas. I have a M4-2 (plus CV Bessa), and if I had to have only one
camera, it would be a "M". Not everyone feels that way, but thats good too.
If someone is paying for their own eqipment, it doesn`t matter what I or anyone else thinks of their choice. Shouldn`t we all be happy that a fellow member is using something they enjoy and feel comfortable with?
Please excuse my long- winded repsonse. I did not start out with that
purpose. It`s just saddening to me that we had to go off on a tangent.
Regards - and I`ll try to keep my future posts infrequent,
Al
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
On this side of the pond, thinking is dangerous. Therefore, you can't.
Nothing, if it's bound in genuine Italian leather! Oh, and you don't have anything in there that would hurt anybody. Or somethin'
You liberal commie