Olsen
Well-known
Well, here in Europe we don't regard 'socialism and capitalism' oposite ideas as such. We elect socialist parties in a capitalist & democratic system. The social democrats are no threat to 'private enterprise' as such, - but could be a threat to an unregulated financial sector.
What we have is a system were personal and private financial information is 'public'; it is available to everybody. The idea is that all information, except for things related to national security, is 'public'. Private financial information is indeed available to US authorities like IRS, regardless - but it is not public.
Generally, far more private and confidential information on US citizens are available to US authorities than what is typical here in Europe. Thanks to laws implemented to fight 'terrorism' in the name of DHS (Department of Homeland Security). Even FBI got far greater freedom to evesdrop on US citizens than what is typical of European policeforces.
Still I would not regard USA or any European nation i know of as 'totalitarian'. Nor is the goal of any social democratic party in Europe I know of to create such a state. - Please see the difference between social democrats and the totalitarian communist states (facists, really) of Eastern Europe.
The goal of the European social democrats is to create decent societies for ordinary people within a framework of a 'capitalist/free enterprise' system. Typical issues are public/free healthcare for all, public pension, lavish social programs, - but also a budget in balance. Which gives high taxes. Ref. the discussion on 'who's gonna pay'.
retow
Well-known
Well, here in Europe we don't regard 'socialism and capitalism' oposite ideas as such. We elect socialist parties in a capitalist & democratic system. The social democrats are no threat to 'private enterprise' as such, - but could be a threat to an unregulated financial sector.
What we have is a system were personaland private financial information is 'public'; it is available to everybody. The idea is that all information, except for things related to national security, is 'public'. Private financial information is indeed available to US authorities like IRS, regardless - but it is not public.
Generally, far more private and confidential information on US citizens are available to US authorities than what is typical here in Europe. Thanks to laws implemented to fight 'terrorism' in the name of DHS (Department of Homeland Security). Even FBI got far greater freedom to evesdrop on US citizens than what is typical of European policeforces.
Still I would not regard USA or any European nation i know of as 'totalitarian'. Nor is the goal of any social democratic party in Europe I know of to create such a state. - Please see the difference between social democrats and the totalitarian communist states (facists, really) of Eastern Europe.
The goal of the European social democrats is to create decent societies for ordinary people within a framework of a 'capitalist/free enterprise' system. Typical issues are public/free healthcare for all, public pension, lavish social programs, - but also a budget in balance. Which gives high taxes. Ref. the discussion on 'who's gonna pay'.
Are you really sure about what you are posting here. How about:
"DIRECTIVE 95/46/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL
of 24 October 1995
on the protection of individuals with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data
THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND THE COUNCIL OF THE EUROPEAN UNION"
Taxpayers net taxable income information is obtainable in some jurisdictions, but details of persoanl and financial information seems quite a different ballgame. Guess you know that Norway is not part of the European Union, but rest assured, that above legislation applies to the vast majority of the 366 million EU citizens and residents you mention in one of your other posts.
Z
zeezea
Guest
Dear Olsen:
I must say, you do have a sense of humor.
And no, I don`t really want to see anyone`s financial information.
Regards
Al
Last edited by a moderator:
Z
zeezea
Guest
Peace
Peace
Hello Pitxu:
I think you are the voice of sanity right now. Unfortunatley, I gave in
to my less noble instincts and contributed to the rancor - and that is
definately not I come to this website for.
Regards,
Al
Peace
Hello Pitxu:
I think you are the voice of sanity right now. Unfortunatley, I gave in
to my less noble instincts and contributed to the rancor - and that is
definately not I come to this website for.
Regards,
Al
yanidel
Well-known
According to the poll, it would make statistical sense that I buy a M8.
Let's see if that explanation is enough to convince my top executive management (girlfriend)
Let's see if that explanation is enough to convince my top executive management (girlfriend)
Olsen
Well-known
Taxpayers net income, net fortune and tax paid, that is 'the personal and financial information' that we are talking of, is available as 'public information' in a range of European countries of which most are members of EU. Here in Norway it is even available on the Net.
Olsen
Well-known
back alley
IMAGES
i'm sure there must be a nice political forum where you could go and discuss cameras...
Olsen
Well-known
Sure,
So, we are photography enthusiasts having a beer together on this 'global bar' after working hours. Can't we discuss politics - or football..?
- And if someone do discuss some issue not strictly 'photography' then somebody else should stop them...? Why? Can't those opposing just surf on to a thread that interests them..?
Here we share - supposedly, the disgust for totalitarian states....
Come on!
retow
Well-known
No censorship, please. Unless this is your house, be tolerant.
aizan
Veteran
well, unlike the poll, you couldn't say the tangent wasn't informative.
blw
Well-known
You're exactly right, aizan. I've enjoyed the discourse on this thread and welcome more of it!
I've actually learned a little about how the EU works and consider myself better for it. But I am still a little pissed that my non-ownership of the M8 keeps me from participating in the poll.
C'est la vie.
I've actually learned a little about how the EU works and consider myself better for it. But I am still a little pissed that my non-ownership of the M8 keeps me from participating in the poll.
C'est la vie.
Z
zeezea
Guest
Take a deep breath....serenity.
Take a deep breath....serenity.
LOL
quote: If you don`t like it, stay out of it!
Seriously Olsen, I thought I was! :bang: My last posts were an
attempt to turn down the heat. Look at the heading of the last
post.....PEACE......
" Just when I thought I was out.......they pull me back in "
Don Michael Corleone
Regardless, it`s good advice - I`m out !
Peace and prosperity,
Al
Take a deep breath....serenity.
LOL
quote: If you don`t like it, stay out of it!
Seriously Olsen, I thought I was! :bang: My last posts were an
attempt to turn down the heat. Look at the heading of the last
post.....PEACE......
" Just when I thought I was out.......they pull me back in "
Don Michael Corleone
Regardless, it`s good advice - I`m out !
Peace and prosperity,
Al
Kim Coxon
Moderator
Unfortunately, this isn't the bar after work but rather in the workplace during working hours. If you want to go to the bar after working hours try the OT forum.
Kim
Kim
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Unfortunately, this isn't the bar after work but rather in the workplace during working hours. If you want to go to the bar after working hours try the OT forum.
Kim
Dear Kim,
Then again, every act is a political act -- including going on RFF during working hours...
Either that act supports the status quo, or it seeks to change it, even if by an infinitesimal amount.
Cheers,
R.
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
do not bash cognac. Cognac is a great drink.
My god. What's next? Talking dirty about Lagavulin? Complaining about Scapa?
No extreme way of thinking (or leading a country) works well. No exception.
People are different, and they want different things to make themselves happy.
Some like blondes, some like redheads.
Some like rangefinders. ):
My god. What's next? Talking dirty about Lagavulin? Complaining about Scapa?
No extreme way of thinking (or leading a country) works well. No exception.
People are different, and they want different things to make themselves happy.
Some like blondes, some like redheads.
Some like rangefinders. ):
gdi
Veteran
Quite a simplistic and unrealistic scenario, for several reasons (from the perspective of a US citizen)...
One, any discussion of a flat tax I have been aware of has had a realistic minimum level for taxes to be paid - for example, several years ago Forbes discussed a minimum of $40k+ for a family of four before the 17% tax kicked in. Other discussions have that range in the $20k's with a different flat rate.
Two, under the US current system of loopholes, shelters and incentives, some billionaires actually pay a lower tax rate than their secretaries. Warren Buffet claims to pay 17.7% of his $46million and the assistant 30% of her $60K.
Which is more fair?
I know your example was meant to be extreme, but carried this far, it fails to provide a meaningful perspective. Personally, I don't know if I could advocate a flat tax unless I saw all the specifics. But most arguments against one seem to fall along the same lines as yours, not taking into account the end result of the current "progressive" tax scheme, which in many cases results in lower rate for the wealthiest.
Olsen
Well-known
Well put.
In Norway you all income below 62.500 NOK (11,160 $) is free of income tax. Sounds fair, but still billionairs can have 'nill' in income tax thanks to 'loopholes and incentives'. Further: Shipping companies are practically tax free here in Norway. For close to 8 years (with conservative rule) we had zero tax on 'dividend from Norwegian stock companies (aksjeselskap)'. Resulting in a flow of 550 billion NOK (100 billion US$) flowed to the 5% richest tax payers, - less than 250.000 individuals here in Norway, through these 8 years. The European Commission complained and called this loophole 'unfair competition'. Still it was not shut down before the Social Democrats came to power three years ago.
Compare this to that our public pension fund has lost - so far - 33 billion $ (according to the latest overview, but it is gonna be more) since Monday last week. Our public pension system pays out pension after 'salary performance' not as an amount dependent on dividends on the fund's investments. Which means that pensionairs will be payed according to predetermined tabulations. So, if the dividend from the fund is not large enough to cover the pension being payed out the balance have to be covered by the 'federal budget'. Increased taxes, that is. (Again; who's gonna pay?)
It is very popular to invest money in private and volontary pension sceems here in Norway, in addition to our - rather lavish, public pension system (about 66% of what you earned according to a certain 'career tabulation'). Nobody knows yet, but here the financial press indicates that 'enormous sums' has been lost. Most will get 'only crumbles' back after the financial world has got their lavish 'fees' and their investment is negative. - Showing that there isn't any real alternative to a public pension system.
Not to mention that huge sums of savings has been lost in share funds (very popular), hedge funds and other increasingly popular ways of speculation that thrives here in Norway.
All that is fine...
What I fear more is unemployment as a result of a building industry that has practically stopped and a world economy going into recession.
The crash on Wall Street hits us all...
Olsen
Well-known
"I would like to discuss totalitarianism with you, but don't think this is the right place to do so."
- It is the right place - and it is very much the right time. What is happening around us is dramatic. What stopping you? Manners?
- It is the right place - and it is very much the right time. What is happening around us is dramatic. What stopping you? Manners?
Roger Hicks
Veteran
At that point, of course, it is no longer a flat tax.
Certes, I have no great problem with the kind of flat tax you describe, provided the threshold is set high enough; but that is how income tax was first introduced in the UK (to pay for the Napoleonic Wars, as I recall), and the threshold has fallen steadily in real terms.
Cheers,
R/