inuaart
Member
RichC said:
But only for UK?
KM-25
Well-known
x-ray said:
I have never liked the 1-series, too darn big. I am about to head out and climb a 14,000 foot peak as a trainer for 4 more...I am either going to bring the M8 / 28/2 or the FM3/ 28/2. The 5D stays at home because I am most likely going to sell all my Canon gear once I get my D3/ D300.
The M8 ain't perfect, but it is small..
gb hill
Veteran
retow said:
$$$$$$$$
BTW to get on topic of the subject I think Leica will survive the price increase because like Rolex and Gucchi they have become a statis symble to the rich & famous and Leica knows it. Also I think collectors are partly to blame.
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tomasis
Well-known
benz, that is very tiring thing to read. can we discuss about only technical things here? another things as magical skills we leave at RFF gallery I still believe that people who use such mechanical Leica RF cameras, improve their skills much more than using full-automatic SLR because using a RF is more difficult, taking more of planing, consideration, control and concentration. Low weight and small size matter a lot for street photography. RF viewfinder is wonderful, it also allows to compose more intuitively etc. I can continue to ramble more. You're right I have seen too many crappy shots from M8 users who dont reserve their cameras, but I'm glad anyway that they can contribute some money to Leica company. Look at Phil Askey as a example. His photography improved a bit thanks to a RF then he can continue with his SLR
X-ray, you responded well. I only tried to confront you. You know, I don't really care about quality. I rather look after special fingerprints, wonderful grains of films etc. To example I buy pre ASPH summilux instead of ASPH, I'm more interested more of Angulon 21mm than any ASPH version I have accepted the fact that Nikon and Canon are major players at the market and can offer much better prices for picture quality, nice service, a lot of choices of their products everywhere. Since 1970 it began to happen when Nikon F released. I know very well that most people prefer such automatic things as P&S, SLR at affordable prices so that generates over millions cameras sold by major players. I don't even believe that M8 even exceds 1% of the camera market or even 0,1%
But since Epson decided to stop produce their Rd-1, then M8 is left as only digital rangefinder. That's why I think we cann't expect a lot of things from there. Only two choices left: go and buy this or forget it. I rather give up a lot of things to get just a crappy digital camera with RF viewfinder with high price, sucking service, many problems of IR, quality etc. I have paid a lot for my Rd1 and I have never been such satisfied though it exist much better alternatives in SLR world from technical and economical viewpoints. it is about some priorities for every photographer.
I still believe that people who use such mechanical Leica RF cameras, improve their skills much more than using full-automatic SLR because using a RF is more difficult, taking more of planing, consideration, control and concentration. Low weight and small size matter a lot for street photography. RF viewfinder is wonderful, it also allows to compose more intuitively etc. I can continue to ramble more. You're right I have seen too many crappy shots from M8 users who dont reserve their cameras, but I'm glad anyway that they can contribute some money to Leica company. Look at Phil Askey as a example. His photography improved a bit thanks to a RF then he can continue with his SLR X-ray, you responded well. I only tried to confront you. You know, I don't really care about quality. I rather look after special fingerprints, wonderful grains of films etc. To example I buy pre ASPH summilux instead of ASPH, I'm more interested more of Angulon 21mm than any ASPH version
I have accepted the fact that Nikon and Canon are major players at the market and can offer much better prices for picture quality, nice service, a lot of choices of their products everywhere. Since 1970 it began to happen when Nikon F released. I know very well that most people prefer such automatic things as P&S, SLR at affordable prices so that generates over millions cameras sold by major players. I don't even believe that M8 even exceds 1% of the camera market or even 0,1% But since Epson decided to stop produce their Rd-1, then M8 is left as only digital rangefinder. That's why I think we cann't expect a lot of things from there. Only two choices left: go and buy this or forget it. I rather give up a lot of things to get just a crappy digital camera with RF viewfinder with high price, sucking service, many problems of IR, quality etc. I have paid a lot for my Rd1 and I have never been such satisfied though it exist much better alternatives in SLR world from technical and economical viewpoints. it is about some priorities for every photographer.
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Olsen
Well-known
I think that Leica is fighting for survival. This price increase is not something they want. They must. They must be sold out of the first M8 batch of, say 20.000 cameras. It could be that they don't dare make another series that big, but only 5000. That means that unit cost might be higher. At the same time 'the dollar is falling'. Actually, just about every currency in the world are falling compared to the € these days. They have to compensate for that too.
What I think they should do is to launch a 'M8s'. With a few up-dates - like far better jpg's out of the box and rather charge 'extra' for that. They should not wait too long with such an up-dated M8s-launch, though. In the digital market a camers success lasts only a few months.
What I think they should do is to launch a 'M8s'. With a few up-dates - like far better jpg's out of the box and rather charge 'extra' for that. They should not wait too long with such an up-dated M8s-launch, though. In the digital market a camers success lasts only a few months.
Ben Z
Veteran
tomasis said:
You could ask Stephen Gandy to change the forum rules
Ben Z
Veteran
Olsen said:
Oh, yeah, that'd really go over big with everyone that bought an M8 in the last 8 months
Ben Z
Veteran
wordpress said:Well, what did they expect? That Leica would make the M8 and then go into hibernation for 10 years?
Maybe not 10 years, but definately more than 10 months
KM-25
Well-known
KM-25 said:
I took the M8, 28 cron, was so light, I barely knew it was there. It behaved perfectly at 14,000+ feet up, not a blink. So I did the one peak yesterday, actually trail ran it down with the light M8. Then today, I did another 14,000 foot peak...took my girlfriend...it was her first one. She is a hurting unit. She runs 3-4 times a week and the altitude nuked her ( she is in photo ).
So I have to decide this weekend to either take the $8,000 M8-28/2 or the bombproof Chevy truck-like FM3A and 28/2 combo on these gnarly-a$$ peaks I have left. These are scary sons of beaches too, very exposed and lots of hand and foot climbing, not a hike up like today.
Either way, the M8 did stellar in the Colorado high country in the last couple days...
newyorkone
Established
ErikFive said:
It is not fair to compare Leica to Canon or Nikon from a scales of economy perspective. My guess is that both Canon and Nikon are probably making a lot more money from each 5D and D200 sold, respectively.
I believe that the initial M8 price was an intro price (I thought it was going to be a lot higher considering what the M7 MSRP was at the time) and it is quite possible that Leica made very little or even lost money in the first year.
I think this move only brings them somewhat more in line with C and N pricing which always includes a buffer for rebates. In order to compete with C and N they will probably have to mimic their marketing tactics which is to have a higher MSRP and then try to entice through rebates.
Leica probably can't afford to do rebates at the current price because then they would really be in the red. With the price increase, it will give them some breathing room to offer rebates. Just my 2 cents.
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Bébèrt
Established
The price increase did convince me to take the pluge. Last saturday I ran to the local Leica dealer an bought a new M8 (black) in no time. We live only once, and live seams so short sometimes...
HAnkg
Well-known
Unless Canon or Nikon come out with an digital RF (don't hold your breath) what they come out with in the way of DSLR's will have little or no impact on the M8. If you are looking for a camera that has an RF finder, manual focusing and operates more or less like a camera designed in 1960 what Canon and Nikon are doing isn't going to fit your requirements. The market for retro manual focus, rangefinder cameras is tiny. In the thousands rather then in the millions. So there is no economy of scale to reduce costs. Expect to pay a big premium for anything that takes as much resources to develop as the M8 for such a small market.ErikFive said:
So even if the RF market triples expect development to be slower and prices higher as it costs a lot to develop high end digital cameras exclusively for a few thousand photographers.
newyorkone
Established
Bébèrt said:
Congrats! You will love it.
I know I love mine...
chuckcars
Member
steve, terrific exposure in a high EV shot. Yes, we can certainly see why we all love the M8. bebert is in for a great photographic experience.
Hacker
黑客
Bébèrt said:
I switched from the Canon 5D to Leica M8 purely because of persistent Tennis Elbow problems. The difference for me was between shooting and not shooting. I lost a lot of $$ letting go of all my Canon gear, and am crying because of the impending price increase and the high prices of Leica gear. In less than 20 days, I added an M8 and 6 ASPH lenses. Only two elude me because of unavailability.
I hoping that the sensor can be upgraded in the M8, so there is some value over the longer term. Everything said, I love the M8 (warts and all but NOT the prices), and have not missed the 5D at all.
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rxmd
May contain traces of nut
Well the market for a $1500 retro manual focus digital rangefinder is less tiny than for a $5000 camera. I can only guesstimate but I would expect an order of magnitude or so. So if you are a camera manufacturer that already has an electronic rangefinder camera on the market and can reuse much of that, maybe in the form of a joint venture with a digital camera maker, a medium-end digital rangefinder might be economically feasible in three or four years, as sensor technology becomes increasingly commodified. Medium-end means crop factors are OK, and megapixel count is equal at best to the middle league of DSLRs. What's standing between us and a new medium-end digital rangefinder are probably mainly the bad experiences of a camera maker with too little expertise and insufficient quality control, and Kobayashi Hirofumi's personal dislike of digital cameras.HAnkg said:
Of course, if people associate "digital RF" only with the high end and associate it with full frame sensors and stuff, which you don't even get in mass-market DSLRs unless you splurge two thirds of an M8, their expectations can only be disappointed.
Philipp
Olsen
Well-known
newyorkone said:
While Nikon's 'imaging division' and Canon's 'Camera division' were about equal in size back in 1999 Canon has grown at double the pace and is today more than twice as large and five times as profitable as Nikon. (Figures in Billion Yen = BY)
Canon's camera division budget for 2007:
Turnover: 1161 BY, operating profit: 318,5 BY
Nikon's imaging division budget for 2007/08:
Turnover: 510 BY, operating profit: 62 BY
Olympus is about half of Nikon in turnover and has a profit of about 10 BY. Pentax is still hanging in there with a turnover of about 150 BY and a operating profit of 6 BY.
Look closely at the operating profit of Canon's camera division; it is about 80% of the operating profit of all the camera producers in the world, - possibly more.
The last Leica annual report (2005/06) that was official showed a turnover of 106,7 million Euros and a negative operating profit of 6,2 million Euros.
So, Canon can put Leica into men's room....
newyorkone
Established
Olsen,
I suspect that Canon has increased profitability in part because of lower quality in terms of build, durability, QC and customer service.
My 2 5D's both had problems and service was a nightmare to deal with. One of the 5D's had to be sent in 3 times for them to finally fix it.
On another note...
I know the Leica/Imacon deal went sour, but, IMHO, the perfect marriage would still be for Leica and Hasselblad/Imacon to join forces. This would certainly make the possibility of a full frame Leica RF more likely and breathe new life into the R line.
I suspect that Canon has increased profitability in part because of lower quality in terms of build, durability, QC and customer service.
My 2 5D's both had problems and service was a nightmare to deal with. One of the 5D's had to be sent in 3 times for them to finally fix it.
On another note...
I know the Leica/Imacon deal went sour, but, IMHO, the perfect marriage would still be for Leica and Hasselblad/Imacon to join forces. This would certainly make the possibility of a full frame Leica RF more likely and breathe new life into the R line.
bluepenguin
Established
So far I'm ok with price increase.
I got my M8 and 90mm Macro at $4000.
So I've started from a lot better place compare to most of people. : )
I got my M8 and 90mm Macro at $4000.
So I've started from a lot better place compare to most of people. : )
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Ben Z said:
I can easily say that about my Minolta CLE with three Hexanon lenses and a Canon 50mm 1.2. Use Kodak E100G and a Minolta scanner to produce 12MP shots that offer a real 28mm, 50mm, 90mm view with true Leica quality shots for less than EUR 1500 all together.
The rest of the money I saved by not buying a Leica set will be invested in travelling to far-away and picturesque destinations in the future!