M8 Rapidwinder ?

[Bill Pierce]

Tom -

When will you modify an M8 so it has your nice rapidwinder rather than shutter cocking moter that can be heard at 30 feet on a crowded street. Us New York boys are going to get soundly beaten by hostile Manhattanites using the extra loud M8.

Bill (a figure from your past who at least has rapidwinders on his M6's and M7's)

 

[Tom A]

Bill, Welcome to the forum and your advice will be appreciated by us all.
As for a Rapidwinder for the M8 - I would suggest a rubber band cocking system instead. I never understood the noisy advance - The Rd1 had a proper cocking lever and though not quiet, you controlled the noise. On the M8 you have that "chirp,chirp" noise the moment you triggered the shutter. Maybe on the next generation there should be a silent mode (remember the Hexar from years gone by).
I havent fallen for the M8, though I did some testing of it prior to its release. They are on the right way, but I did explain that what I REALLY wanted was a 15-16Mp dedicated mono chrome version with enhanced dynamic range. I am obviously still waiting for it. Oh, once they get it I also would want the rangefinder from the Zeiss ZM camera and the 21 finder from the Bessa R4M incorporated. Oh well, they probably will ignore me again!

 

[Bill Pierce]

B&w

B&w

Tom -

I talked to some folks, not at Leica but at another camera company, who said they were seriously considering a black-and-white digital camera. In all likelihood it would be a relatively small, autofocus, autoexposure camera with a zoom lens, not a DSLR. Frankly, I don't think we'll ever see it. I don't see enough people buying it to make it worth their while.

But if someone ever built a camera with 14 or 16 bit that didn't have to record three colors, it could kick butt. And I know two people who would buy it.

Pierce

 

[grduprey]

Tom -

I talked to some folks, not at Leica but at another camera company, who said they were seriously considering a black-and-white digital camera. In all likelihood it would be a relatively small, autofocus, autoexposure camera with a zoom lens, not a DSLR. Frankly, I don't think we'll ever see it. I don't see enough people buying it to make it worth their while.

But if someone ever built a camera with 14 or 16 bit that didn't have to record three colors, it could kick butt. And I know two people who would buy it.

Pierce

Kodak had a DSLR for B&W only, years ago. Never made it, as no market was found. I think there are only a couple out in the real world. there is a page on the net on it, but don't remember who or where now though. the guy loved it, and actually had one.

As for the M8 shutter, Heard aqt 30 ft in NY on the streets? Sorry I don't beleive you. Unless you did this late at night when there was almost no traffic and people around. I can't hear mine 10 ft away on the street or at my wife's dog shows. Seems much quieter than the R8/9 winder and motors. And I suspect it is the same basic gear and motor as is in the winder, since it has a similar sound, but quieter.

Gene

 

[Bill Pierce]

Gene -

Sadly, it's absolutely true about about folks hearing the camera at thirty feet. At least, they immediately turn and look in my direction. I, and I think most folks, normally work even closer to subjects on the street with a rangefinder camera. People don't respond every time I shoot, but there is enough response to worry me. Bruce Gilden, the Magnum photographer, once told me that he had more people go after him when he was shooting on the streets of Manhattan than some of the more exotic locations we think would be more edgy. I'm getting too old to run and too grouchy to charm my subjects.

Bill

 

[vincentbenoit]

And I know two people who would buy it.

Three people.

Vincent

 

[AusDLK]

Interesting to see more and more people gripe about the noisy M8.

As some may remember, all it took to completely burst my M8 bubble was one click of the shutter at the noisy and crowded Leica booth at Photokina last year. Man did the cult mentality of Leica come after me.

Despite many attempts of overcome this profound disappointment, I will never own a Leica M digital unless they wise up and build a camera that inherits ALL of the qualities that made the M camera so great for 50 years -- and "simply" replace the film pressure plate with a digital sensor.

 

[amateriat]

Three people.

Vincent

Four, and counting...

Kodak had a DSLR for B&W only, years ago. Never made it, as no market was found. I think there are only a couple out in the real world. there is a page on the net on it, but don't remember who or where now though. the guy loved it, and actually had one.

If memory serves me half-way well, more than a mere handful of these cameras made it out the door. Those who have still-working exmples would likely have to be killed before letting go of them. The one guy whose writings about it I've actually read (I think you can find some of his stuff on Luminous Landscape) raved like crazy about it. Kodak appeared to have their finger on The Formula, then dropped it. Kodak had a hell of a lot of misfires in the digital realm (perhaps secretly in order not to rock their film-product cash-cow at the time, but I'm not all that big on conspiracy theories), this "dud" seems the strangest, since, other than some odd firmware/software issues, they had the performance thing pretty much nailed.

These are the frustrating things that keep me shooting film for the time being. To me, it's not so much a question of if something can be done in the digital realm, but more a matter of will/nerve on the part of the manufacturer.


- Barrett

 

[grduprey]

Gene -

Sadly, it's absolutely true about about folks hearing the camera at thirty feet. At least, they immediately turn and look in my direction. I, and I think most folks, normally work even closer to subjects on the street with a rangefinder camera. People don't respond every time I shoot, but there is enough response to worry me. Bruce Gilden, the Magnum photographer, once told me that he had more people go after him when he was shooting on the streets of Manhattan than some of the more exotic locations we think would be more edgy. I'm getting too old to run and too grouchy to charm my subjects.

Bill

Bill,

I guess New Yorkers are more sensitive to noise. I have been shooting with my M8 in Chicago and Dallas streets, inside buildings and where I live in Cedar Rapids shooting in crowds at a bicycle run and not a single person noticed, that I know of. Every once in a while yes, when in a quiet room, but pretty much ignored. Considering the noise in city streets, I'm sorry I just don't see it, in factI hardly hear it on the streets.

Gene

 

[Trius]

Let's face it, a monochrome DSLR is not a big enough market for Kodak to think about. If they had made a monochrome M mount camera, they could have done something quite wonderful and made a small profit with it. Photojournalists who have b&w as their main stock in trade would buy it.

When Larry Towell, a Magnum photographer, was here for a presentation, he opened by saying that he could "live without my Leica, but don't take my Tri-X away." Tells you something about a to PJ's relationship to his tools and materials.

 

[saxshooter]

I've got a Luigi half case on my M8 and to my ears it deadens the sound a bit. YMMV.

My Canon 1D series digital on "silent mode" is much more quiet (it drops the mirror when you pull your finger off the shutter button), but then again walking around with that beast gives you away immediately...

 

[HenningW]

After getting a chance to test the M8 last year, I had intended to wait for a B&W version. Due to other circumstances I got the garden variety. But if Leica made a 10+ Mp B&W camera similar to the M8, I would get one immediately. The difference in quality achievable from the Kodak B&W SLR compared with the colour version was huge. I had a chance to get one a number of years ago (used) but the demand was very high and a fellow I know offered the previous owner more than the new price, which was out of my range.

I believe a Leica M B&W digital would do well enough to justify the production, although it would almost certainly have to be sold for a fair bit more than the colour version.

Henning

 

[Harry Lime]

I was at the VII Photo seminar in London a few months ago and someone was snapping away with his M8, while John Morris was giving his talk.

Among the clatter of DSLR bodies I could clearly hear the M8's distict 'snock!' from across the auditorium, but I could barely hear the fellow with his M6 about 15ft away from me...

It's certainly louder or more intrusive than the analog M series and it was somewhat annoying when I shot with one.

But it didn't bother me any where near as much as the ridiculously inaccurate framelines. Now THAT'S a serious problem.

HL

 

[HenningW]

..........
But it didn't bother me any where near as much as the ridiculously inaccurate framelines. Now THAT'S a serious problem.

HL

The framelines in the M8 are as accurate (or inaccurate) as they've always been for M cameras. They've always been accurate at the closest focus, and showed more as the distance increases. The higher the maximum magnification of the lens, the less accurate the framelines are at infinity. On film bodies the discrepancy hasn't been quite as blatant as on the m8, as you don't have the instant feedback.

Also, recent bodies have had 'less accurate' framelines as the lenses have gotten closer minimum focussing distances, and the framelines have been adjusted accordingly. On that basis, an M3 has more accurate framelines.

If you want framing accuracy, your only option other than an SLR is a P&S using the LCD as a framing device.

Henning

 

[Harry Lime]

The framelines in the M8 are as accurate (or inaccurate) as they've always been for M cameras. They've always been accurate at the closest focus, and showed more as the distance increases. The higher the maximum magnification of the lens, the less accurate the framelines are at infinity. On film bodies the discrepancy hasn't been quite as blatant as on the m8, as you don't have the instant feedback.

Also, recent bodies have had 'less accurate' framelines as the lenses have gotten closer minimum focussing distances, and the framelines have been adjusted accordingly. On that basis, an M3 has more accurate framelines.

If you want framing accuracy, your only option other than an SLR is a P&S using the LCD as a framing device.

Henning

You are correct about the technical reason why this occurs, but what it boils down to is that the framelines on the M8 are horribly inaccurate for all the reasons you gave and thus worse than any previous M cameras.

Last time I shot an M8 I was using a 35mm lens.

At 5 meters there already was a noticeable error. I was probably getting about 10% more than indicated by the markings. Not all that bad. But at infinity the markings were so far off that I was able to use the framelines of the next wider focal lenght to very accurately frame the shot. That's an enormous error and frankly unacceptable, even by rangefinder standards.

I am not expecting the accuracy of an SLR, but we have gone from having reasonably accurate framing, to something that even by rangefinder standards is very, very far of the mark. I've been shooting heavily with M cameras for over 10 years so this isn't news to me. But this is one of the main reasons why I have not yet purchased an M8.

Apparently I am not alone in this opinion and Leica has gotten a lot of complaints about this manner from their official testers.

What Leica really needs to do is design a viewfinder with framelines that compensate for the shift in magnification that occurs. The current solution is not acceptable. I should not have to crop a 10MP file to 8MP to get the shot I intended.

HL

 

[maggieo]

Last time I shot an M8 I was using a 35mm lens.

At 5 meters there already was a noticeable error. I was probably getting about 10% more than indicated by the markings. Not all that bad. But at infinity the markings were so far off that I was able to use the framelines of the next wider focal lenght to very accurately frame the shot. That's an enormous error and frankly unacceptable, even by rangefinder standards.

Well, that explains A LOT about why my shots have been coming out the way they have. I've turned off review, so I haven't been chimping and the difference in what I remember framing and what I've been getting had me flummoxed until today.

Consider me complaining to Leica and thanking Mister Lime.

 

[terrycioni]

Tom A. slagging the M8 is nothing new (we know why). Any Friday morning at Zen Cafe on Yew in Vancouver will get you the full Story on that subject. Funny thing, I bought my first M8 based on Tom's pulished review. By the way the TA Softie can and does work on the M8 as well as the M4 or 6 or whatever.

As for shooting on the streets of New York city - all I can say is I shoot often on the streets of Vancouver and I have yet to be noticed. I guess the traffic/people noise in NYC is somehow quieter than Vancouver. The M8 is noiser the M film cameras no question about that, but then life has gotten a lot noiser - besides most people are hooked up to some sort of headset or iPod or whatever.

Henning is right - the M8 framelines are no less or more accurate than the current film M cameras. By way of full disclosure I have two M8 bodies and an M4 (a ton of lenses CV, Zeiss, Konica, and Leica). I also have a Nikon D40X (10.1megapixel sensor) body that is quieter, does not require UV/IR filters, has extremely accurate framing and is a little smaller, the IQ is extremely close or close enough and better at high ISOs then M8 and cost 1/6 the price and does auto focus faster than I can focus a Leica and does it with more accuracy. I don't have to take the baseplate off to change SD cards...but it doesn't have the RED DOT. Sigh!

It is all fun....

Terry

PS Tom, Tuulikki, and Mr. B are all friends of the Cioni/Zeto/Sophie family...needed to say that.

 

[kbg32]

I use my M8 on the streets of NYC without any problems. Yes, it is noisier than other Ms, but not like, for example, a Canon 5D.

 

[Harry Lime]

Tom A. slagging the M8 is nothing new (we know why).

Henning is right - the M8 framelines are no less or more accurate than the current film M cameras. By way of full disclosure I have two M8 bodies and an M4 (a ton of lenses CV, Zeiss, Konica, and Leica).

Terry

First off Terry I am not slagging the M8 and I'm not sure what you are refering to by your little comment of "we know why". Maybe it makes you feel special to think you're in some little club with a secret handshake, but hey, if that's what floats your boat or gets you through the day, what ever.

Second I really don't see how you can come to the conclusion that Henning is right on this matter, especially in light of the gear you claim to own. Again, this is a widely acknowledged issue and something that apparently Leica intends to address at some point (or at least that is what they have told several of their official testers). When and how they intend to fix this no one knows and those who do know, aren't telling.

Personally I don't own an M8. For the type of work I do it does not make sense for me to own a $5000 digital body and have it sit there for long periods and depreciate. That's why I sold my 5D. Instead I rent digital bodies as needed.

The M8 has some quirks; some of which are annoying, but ultimately none of them are show stoppers, because the benefits of the camera outweight its flaws.

I have spent enough time with an M8 to know that it does frame a lot less accurate than the analog M cameras and it's not just because you can chimp the shot seconds after you took it, which makes any discrepancies more noticeable than seeing the results hours or days later.

I shoot my M film bodies pretty much on a daily basis and have been doing so for over a decade, so I have a pretty good baseline to compare to. You can see some of my work here:

www.elanphotos.com

Unfortunately I did not have the oppertunity to shoot a 28mm on the M8, which I have been told frames the most accurate. But I did try the other focal lengths and paid close attention to the framing results and there is an awful lot of slop in the system. More than I experienced with any of my M bodies, that run the gamut from M2 to M7.

As far as shutter noise is concerned, I did not find it to be a big deal on a normal city street. Even on a relatively quiet street it wasn't that noticeable, unless you were pretty close to someone.

But it could be quite noticeable when shooting in interiors, especially up close. People did sometimes turn around or look up after I took a shot, unless they were distracted by something else. And the sound of the M8 does travel a lot more, than the old cameras. It's not the end of the world, but you do notice it under those extreme circumstances, where the old M shutter excelled (i.e. a church during mass etc).

Personally I don't think it is just an issue of volume. It is the character of the sound that the M8 makes. It's more intrusive than the smooth 'snick' of the analog bodies and as I mentioned earlier, it travels. But I am certain that this is something Leica could improve.

HL

 

[terrycioni]

Harry

Harry

Your attitude and tone are silly. I wasn't making any reference to any secret club or handsake. The reason I stay away from places like this are people like you. As for what I claim to own - go take care of the horse you rode in on Harry. I make no claims just the facts. My goodness is there something in the water in London or what.

Terry.