Olsen
Well-known
Can somebody tell me, right to my face, - no Michael Reichman bull..., please, the status of affairs regarding banding, blip'iing, IR-casts and other hanki-panki that might have been found by M8 users, and to what probability these faults might be streighten out by software up-dates and filters. Per now.
Is M8 a reliable camera? Or a $ 4,795 paperweight?
Is M8 a reliable camera? Or a $ 4,795 paperweight?
J. Borger
Well-known
What's the point of starting this again .... mileage varies.Olsen said:
I am happy with the first version including streaking and IR sensitivity ... but nobody believes me or anybody else who states he likes that camera.
Especially people who prefer testing cameras in all kind of weird situations instead of shooting real life pictures consider it a paperweight that seriously limits their kind of photography
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
A reliable camera.98 % of my shots are technically superior to any other camera I've ever owned.
Ben Z
Veteran
jaapv said:
Which is meaningless to the guy who 98% of his photography is in the area of your 2%...for instance shots of people wearing black clothing, taken in dark settings above ISO 640 with overhead spotlights that play havoc with filters, like jazz clubs or city streets at night...which happens to be a major preference among many Leica RF users. Guys like you and me who take travel shots mostly outside during the day operate most of the time outside the M8's problem zone.
Sailor Ted
Well-known
Ben Z said:
Is this true of filters coated on both sides? I think not and if "not" then your whole argument is meaningless. However if filters coated on both sides exhibit the deleterious effects you infer I stand humbly corrected.
Also take a look at my gallery if you wish- it is squarely with in "Leica's problem zone" as you put it all shot on the R-D1s. In a couple of weeks I'll have new shots to share taken on an M8 again in this "problem zone" (Las Vegas after dark) and we shall see if the M8 is up to the task or not. As for the other DRF option currently available, it has a severe set of issues in this zone as outlined in a number of my posts backed up by photographic evidence as well as on my gallery. My guess is that the M8 will be less problematic, not more so when compared to the R-D1 under similar circumstances.
I will be 100% honest and share the good, the bad, and the ugly (if it exists) when I return from Vegas. But I’ll say this- if the Leica performs as I hope it will then this non-sense should end.
Last edited:
Ben Z
Veteran
Ted, there's been a lot of talking in circles about whether or not the IR filters are MRC or not and so far only Sean Reid who has some real Leica filters says his are engraved "MRC". That said I use MRC UV filters (multicoate on both sides) on all my lenses and I still have to take them off when shooting in those situations or else I get reflections/ghosts etc, so I don't see how the IR filters would be better regardless of whether they are MRC or not.
Insofar as the RD-1 goes, Sean has said the RD-1 suffers much less from IR contamination than the M8. If I find I have a serious problem with mine that can only be solved with an IR filter which would cause flare and ghosts, at $1395 for a refurb the experiment will cost me about what I'd need to spend in filters alone for an M8. If it bombs there's still nothing stopping me from getting an M8 and by that time maybe it won't have to sit on the shelf for two months till I can get some Leica MRC filters And I can either sell the RD-1 or keep it for a backup...you know, something to limp along with while my M8 is in the shop
Insofar as the RD-1 goes, Sean has said the RD-1 suffers much less from IR contamination than the M8. If I find I have a serious problem with mine that can only be solved with an IR filter which would cause flare and ghosts, at $1395 for a refurb the experiment will cost me about what I'd need to spend in filters alone for an M8. If it bombs there's still nothing stopping me from getting an M8 and by that time maybe it won't have to sit on the shelf for two months till I can get some Leica MRC filters
And I can either sell the RD-1 or keep it for a backup...you know, something to limp along with while my M8 is in the shop
Last edited:
Gid
Well-known
Sailor Ted said:
I really do hope that the M8 makes you happy. However, a word to the wise, if you pixel peep you can find something "wrong" with any D camera. Looking at an image at 100% on screen shows you what it would look like printed at your screen resolution (72 - 90 dpi for most screens). So, shoot, print, enjoy and forget about comparisons.
Sailor Ted
Well-known
Gid said:
Gid I am very much a forest shooter not a "miss the forest for the trees" kind of guy. What I anticipate with the M8 is world-class sharpness and a sense of three dimensionality reminiscent of low speed film shot on my M6. This will not however be determined by pixel peeping but rather the overall impact of images and prints.
When I post images and exploded views of images shot on my R-D1 it is not because I am dissatisfied with this camera (far from it I like the camera very much). It is to show that the R-D1 is far from perfect, that the M8 made better decisions in regard to the inherent compromises that must be made when designing a DRF camera, and that the M8 is being held to an unobtainable standard given the current state of technology. Hopefully very soon I will be posting images shot on my (soon to be) new M8
that are in a league far beyond my R-D1's wildest dreams.The treatment the M8 is receiving here and else where is unfair, illogical, and not called for. To me Leica is an old friend and just as I would do for any long standing friend I am defending their honor and supporting them as much as I can- not out of blind loyality but out of respect for the logical decisions they have made in designing to the M8.
Ted
Last edited:
M
Magnus
Guest
jaapv said:
When shooting "Mountain scenes" and normal uncomplicated shots the M8 performs as well as any other semi-pro DSLR. <the Leica glass will indeed give the extra "zing" to the image, but only in average day to day photography.
When using the M8 for what one uses Leica for, low-light photography it produces images which indeed are not comparable. You should go and see the examples on LUF on what the exact effects are, and no they don't happen all the time, but in my opinion some of the time is bad enough .....
All in all I would wait until all problems are solved, I wish I would of done so ....
Sailor Ted
Well-known
Last edited:
M
Magnus
Guest
Sailor Ted, you don't look wider than your nose is long or what?
There are multiple examples of these, well let's stay civil, "mis-haps" of M8 images on the web. Now a counter argument amongst the die hard leica aficionados is that this only happens every now and then, might I add that "every now and then" is not tolerable!
There are multiple examples of these, well let's stay civil, "mis-haps" of M8 images on the web. Now a counter argument amongst the die hard leica aficionados is that this only happens every now and then, might I add that "every now and then" is not tolerable!
M
Magnus
Guest
As mentioned for day to day family snaps it is a good camera, but I would think most folk buy the M8 to get a bit more than day to day images .... in this case it won't do .... it just is not good enough.
Gid
Well-known
Sailor Ted said:Gid I am very much a forest shooter not a "miss the forest for the trees" kind of guy. What I anticipate with the M8 is world-class sharpness and a sense of three dimensionality reminiscent of low speed film shot on my M6. This will not however be determined by pixel peeping but rather the overall impact of images and prints.
When I post images and exploded views of images shot on my R-D1 it is not because I am dissatisfied with this camera (far from it I like the camera very much). It is to show that the R-D1 is far from perfect, that the M8 made better decisions in regard to the inherent compromises that must be made when designing a DRF camera, and that the M8 is being held to an unobtainable standard given the current state of technology. Hopefully very soon I will be posting images shot on my (soon to be) new M8
The treatment the M8 is receiving here and else where is unfair, illogical, and not called for. To me Leica is an old friend and just as I would do for any long standing friend I am defending their honor and supporting them as much as I can- not out of blind loyality but out of respect for the logical decisions they have made in designing to the M8.
Ted
If Leica had gone with the crowd and dealt with the IR issues in camera, then, there would not have been so much hoo ha about its problems. Leica sets the bar high and therefore expectations have been somewhat unrealistic. If they'd stuck a 1.3 crop 10 MP sensor and optical VF into the digilux 2 they would most likely have had a real winner, even with a fixed zoom. As it stands there are a set of compromises that one has to deal with, that really should not be there. To argue that this is just a sensible implementation is nuts - they mucked up. This doesn't mean that you won't be able to make decent images with it, its just that it is not as good as a Leica should be. In my opinion, trying to defend a third rate implementation of a second rate solution is brand loyalty beyond my comprehension. However, if it works for you (the royal you) GREAT. Personally, I can see that the emporer is nude.
BTW, I'm no Leica basher. I have an M6, an MP and a lot of money in Leica lenses.
Good light to all
Sailor Ted
Well-known
Gid said:
*sigh*
Actually if Leica had taken the road more traveled then the camera would not produce images as sharp with far more issues then is currently the case and with issues similar to those of the R-D1 that miraculously have gone unnoticed but would now be getting a great deal of attention. The fact as you put it is Leica does set their bar high- VERY HIGH and the M8 delivers images to that level. Of course we are required to go through a few extra steps, like using IR cut filters- so what, and the M8 is more expensive then an R-D1s whose imaging issues and limitations would never be tolerated on the M8.
If people cannot afford an M8 or do not wish to purchase one that's fine but it does not take away from what the M8 is- the worlds best DRF by a HUGE MARGIN and the worlds best digital camera in a small form factor.
Last edited:
Sailor Ted
Well-known
Magnus said:
Perhaps it is not the camera that is not good enough? Perhaps it is the photographer?
M
Magnus
Guest
"but it does not take away from what the M8 is- the worlds best DRF by a HUGE MARGIN " well taking into account that there are only 2 at the moment this is not a big thing, by a huge marging though might be a bit strong... The only huge margin applicable here is the price tag.
"the worlds best digital camera in a small form factor" the most expensive for sure, the best ..... again a matter of opinion.
"the worlds best digital camera in a small form factor" the most expensive for sure, the best ..... again a matter of opinion.
Gid
Well-known
Sailor Ted said:
This is risky ground.
Affordability has nothing to do with it. First out of two isn't that much to shout about.
The margin is a moot point and irrelevant if the other DRF is "good enough".When you have your M8 in your hands and have posted some shots, then, I'll listen to your arguments. Until then, you're basing your arguments on what you've seen or read on the web.
I really do hope that you enjoy the M8 and make some fabulous images with it.
Chill out and stop trying to convince everyone. The most important opinion in all of this is yours.
Best regards
M
Magnus
Guest
A wise old goat this Gid is .....
M
Magnus
Guest
... ...Sailor Ted
Well-known
Gid said:This is risky ground.
Affordability has nothing to do with it. First out of two isn't that much to shout about.
When you have your M8 in your hands and have posted some shots, then, I'll listen to your arguments. Until then, you're basing your arguments on what you've seen or read on the web.
I really do hope that you enjoy the M8 and make some fabulous images with it.
Chill out and stop trying to convince everyone. The most important opinion in all of this is yours.
Best regards
Hmmm. What may I ask are you basing your opinions on? As to trying to convince people, there are a hell of a lot of people here trying to convince not only people who don't own an M8 not to buy one, but also those who do (own one) of their folly. Yes the M8 is the leader in a two horse race but it's also one of the worlds best digital cameras based on some of the shots I've seen and acording to some of the worlds most respected digital print makers- so again, what are you basing your opinions on?
Last edited: