Ben Z
Veteran
Sailor Ted said:
Making a pre-emptive strike against anyone who might draw a negative conclusion from a negative fact would be a good tactic if this weren't a forum of clearly logical thinkers
Back in November I was told by my dealer that the Leica rep told him Leica's planned production capacity was booked through late summer '07 with pre-orders. Recently the same dealer (the one some here who shall remain nameless called a b-s'er) told me the same rep said there were so many cancellations that the backorders would be done by late Feb or early March and after that the future sales of the M8 were anybody's guess. He also said the main reason was not the "teething troubles", but 99% the IR filters, and that the reps are putting pressure on Leica-US and they (hopefully) in turn on Solms, to redesign the sensor IR filter ASAP. So as you say, it will be interesting to see over the next few months what happens. If Leica were to say they had a redesigned sensor in the works and would upgrade current M8's under warranty, I would buy one. Those who prefer the front filters could of course just pass on the upgrade.But another problem Leica will face is that Canon is almost sure to have a new full-frame in the works, and rumors have it at 22MP. Of course their problem will be offering lenses with commensurate quality, and it still won't be a rangefinder, and no doubt there will be a few people who will still swear the M8 has better IQ
but if Leica has to replace the sensors anyway, a bump in pixel count and/or a reduction in the crop factor mightn't be a bad idea...while we're in dream-mode
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jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Well- I would certainly wait to see if and what detrimental effect such a filter would have before upgrading.
Sailor Ted
Well-known
Ben Z you'll buy one when you can get it for a significant discount off retail and not until- mark my words.
KM-25
Well-known
Sailor Ted said:
LoL!! Are you kidding? Why is it neurotic to want to see what the best photographers in the business will do with the M8? Not wanting to see expensive and able Leica glass cropped is hardly niche. I am sure if I were to get an M8 I would have some fun with it, but the crop factor would indeed drive me crazy.
But since we are on the subject of the M8, you speak ( rather prolifically ) of it as if it were the greatest camera ever made, with no equal. I hate to break it to you...but it is not. The M8 is a fine tool indeed and we all need it to be successful in order to see Leica persist in the dog eat dog world of digital. But to keep posting on and on about it and come to it's defense definitely exposes your naiveté of the whole of the modern photographic world.
Enjoy it, but stop pushing it like a Jehovah witness, it is tacky, don't you think?
khanosu
Furrukh Khan
Ben Z said:(from the other thread):
You cancelled the order with your friend and bought from B&H?
Is the one you cancelled a first-batch that the new owner will have to send back right away to Solms?
No, the dealer got it fresh today, it is not an old batch. No need to send this one to Solms. This is from the newest bach of cameras that have hit the US stores today.
I cancelled my order way back in Nov. 06 and he refunded my deposit. It was on my friend's recommendation (the dealer himself) that I cancelled the order with him; he was not sure if he would get one before March 07. I bought other equipment from him after cancelling my order worth more than the amount I had canceled for the M8 body; he was happy.
Furrukh
Sailor Ted
Well-known
KM-25,
I too would like to see the worlds best photographers work shot on an M8 however absence of this fact takes nothing away from the images that are now starting to pour in. And you are correct it is the photog that in the end creates the image, not the iEye (that was the point of my iEye story.) For the record I do not believe the M8 to be the only world class camera- just one of them. You're also correct that I do stick up for this camera and I am very enthusiastic about it's performance. Tacky? Perhaps but so too are those whose sole purpose for being here is to keep the same old tired circular arguments going for what purpose I cannot fathom. Perhaps it was better when they had free reign to dump on this camera and kill any likelihood of your full frame M9 ever making it's way to market?
I too would like to see the worlds best photographers work shot on an M8 however absence of this fact takes nothing away from the images that are now starting to pour in. And you are correct it is the photog that in the end creates the image, not the iEye (that was the point of my iEye story.) For the record I do not believe the M8 to be the only world class camera- just one of them. You're also correct that I do stick up for this camera and I am very enthusiastic about it's performance. Tacky? Perhaps but so too are those whose sole purpose for being here is to keep the same old tired circular arguments going for what purpose I cannot fathom. Perhaps it was better when they had free reign to dump on this camera and kill any likelihood of your full frame M9 ever making it's way to market?
Ben Z
Veteran
Sailor Ted said:
Except that I had a deposit down and only cancelled my order when I heard about the IR filters, so your attempt to paint me as simply a cheapskate won't work. Sorry, my objections to the M8 are functional, not financial. I don't expect there will likely ever be any opportunity to buy a new one at less than retail because there is none such on the M7 and MP. This is because dealers don't keep many in inventory. Any price reduction would have to come from the top down, so if anything, retail price may go down but we'll still be paying retail. That said if Leica comes out with a filter-free M8.2 and they don't offer to upgrade the M8, then there will be plenty of opportunity to buy mint, hardly-used M8s for $3K or less-mark my words
Topdog1
Well-known
Ben Z said:Except that I had a deposit down and only cancelled my order when I heard about the IR filters, so your attempt to paint me as simply a cheapskate won't work. Sorry, my objections to the M8 are functional, not financial. I don't expect there will likely ever be any opportunity to buy a new one at less than retail because there is none such on the M7 and MP. This is because dealers don't keep many in inventory. Any price reduction would have to come from the top down, so if anything, retail price may go down but we'll still be paying retail. That said if Leica comes out with a filter-free M8.2 and they don't offer to upgrade the M8, then there will be plenty of opportunity to buy mint, hardly-used M8s for $3K or less-mark my words
The big Hong Kong camera dealers on eBay sell new M bodies at a considerable discount to the US and Europe. You can get MPs and M7s at great prices from them, albeit with International warranties (a minor point IMHO). When the back log breaks on M8s, look for them there.
/Ira
Ben Z
Veteran
Topdog1 said:
The US MP/M7 come with 3-year full-coverage Passport plus 2-year malfunction warranty, but the M8 comes with the same 2-year non-Passport warranty no matter where you buy it, so I suppose there's no advantage to buying mail-order from NYC vs HK. Sometimes I wonder if Leica wouldn't be smarter to just open their own e-commerce website and sell direct, cut out all the middlemen and split the difference with the customer
Topdog1
Well-known
Given the legendary reliability of Leica cameras, don't they usually just die of infant mortality or work forever? Does anyone really care about the extended warranty?
/Ira
I think luxury priced products need a luxury sales job, although I only buy online. Haven't been into a store in ages. I want service, availability, price...in about that order. I don't need or want someone holding my hand or "selling" me anything. As Jean Paul Sartre said, "Other people are Hell." That's why e-commerce is sooo beautiful.Ben Z said:Sometimes I wonder if Leica wouldn't be smarter to just open their own e-commerce website and sell direct, cut out all the middlemen and split the difference with the customer
/Ira
khanosu
Furrukh Khan
KM-25 said:
I think we still have to wait a bit before we start getting the type of quality pictures of rangefinder/Leica type you are talking about (from an M8). People using rangefinders with the kind of insane vision and talent you are talking about use film today and transferring to digital will perhaps be a significant hurdle and learning curve for them. I see no reason why in insanely talented hands the M8 will not produce insanely stunning images but I suspect that we have to wait for that. A few Magnum photographers have produced some good work with fingerprints of originality and individuality but it will be some time before the body of work from the M8 catches up with film; after all the M8 is only a few months young.
Furrukh
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sirius
Well-known
KM-25 said:
I'm not sure if you have seen these photos on the magnum site. I think Leica gave magnum a bunch for free since they are part of the whole mystique of Liecas. They are typically stunning and he rambles on about the low light capabilities of modern digital cameras.
Visit Constantine Manos' photo essay, American Colour
sirius
Well-known
Sorry, I forgot to mention that you need to click on the "Leica M8" link on the right-hand of the presentation. He says that it is everything he hoped it would be.
Topdog1
Well-known
ErikFive said:
I was refering to the M7s and MPs that the Hong Kong dealers sell, not the M8. But if an M8 works beyond infant mortality, I don't see why it shouldn't keep working as long as you'd want to use it: 5-7 years would be a long time in the digital world, and well beyond even the US warranty.
/Ira
Sailor Ted
Well-known
One perspective on film vs. digital as it pertains to how long one would want to use a digital camera:
A film camera is just that- a camera and film. A digital camera is just that- a camera and digital film. No one wants to shoot 35 year old analogue film and no one will want to shoot 35 year old digital film. The lenses perhaps will be of use 35 years from now however as technology continues to evolve, the form of the RF camera may become less and less compatible with digital sensor technology, or it may be a non issue and so we will continue to use our M mount lenses- no one knows from the vantage point of today. The point is not that people will not want to use a 35 year old digital camera so much as it is that no one wants to shoot with 35 year old film.
A film camera is just that- a camera and film. A digital camera is just that- a camera and digital film. No one wants to shoot 35 year old analogue film and no one will want to shoot 35 year old digital film. The lenses perhaps will be of use 35 years from now however as technology continues to evolve, the form of the RF camera may become less and less compatible with digital sensor technology, or it may be a non issue and so we will continue to use our M mount lenses- no one knows from the vantage point of today. The point is not that people will not want to use a 35 year old digital camera so much as it is that no one wants to shoot with 35 year old film.
Topdog1
Well-known
But digital time is like dog years: 1 year in the life of a digital camera is like 5 years in the life of an analogue camera.
/Ira
<=== Woof, woof. That's me.
/Ira
<=== Woof, woof. That's me.
scho
Well-known
Still waiting.
Still waiting.
I've been on a waiting list since December and don't expect to see my black M8 before April at the rate my dealer is getting stock.
Still waiting.
I've been on a waiting list since December and don't expect to see my black M8 before April at the rate my dealer is getting stock.