M9/M8 distant focusing

[sixb]

Ok- So this is something that's bugged me for a while now and I'm wondering if other folks have had the same issue.

With any of my Leica, Canon or CV lenses -focus goes out beyond about 20-30 feet. The wider i go the worse it is. I've shot and shoot with tons of different digital and film cameras both professionally and for personal work and this seems to be a Leica M digital-centric issue. At least for me.

I've shot with Leica film cameras for years and never questioned the focus at say f2 or even 1.4 at or beyond 20 feet but with the M8 and with the M9 (serviced for this issue) the subject is always OOF.

Beyond this I did some shots on a hike from the top of a mountain with both my M9 and my Mamiya 6 at F16 and and the M9 was softer than it's capable of from foreground to back- the MAM6 fine.

I don't want to start trouble and don't want to start a film vs. digital fight as I happily shoot both but I'm curious if anyone else has had the same problem--inaccurate focus beyond around 20 feet with M digitals.

let me know

ccm

 

[LCT]

I don't shoot at f/16 to avoid diffraction and i've got focus problems with some pre-digital Leica lenses (90/2, 90/2.8) let alone focus shift issues with some CV ones (28/2, 35/1.4) but otherwise my M8.2 pics are normally sharp at all apertures and subject distances within the accuracy range of the rangefinder. I have no experience with Canon lenses and i don't shoot wider than 21mm though. FWIW.

 

[Scheelings]

Are you sure the problem is with the focus? I found that it was difficult to tell OOF vs motion blur. I found that with the M8, shooting at long distances was more likely to result in motion blur as the camera movement results in a larger distance smudged for any given 'pixel' as the distance to the object increases. Most of this I attribute to the shutter vibration.

 

[Scheelings]

Oh and another thing - its less likely to be noticed with film as the grain doesn't allow for an as high resolution - which becomes even less perceptible at distance

 

[sixb]

Great feedback- thanks! I'm not one for doing this but a while back i did a controlled tripod test in a long hallway at my studio and came up with the same results. My Canon 5D MII doesn't have the same issue nor does my Nikon gear, Leica M6 or my Mam6. Also- this happens at high shutter speeds which rules out vibration on the low end.

I think I'm going to take the M9 back to Jersey to have them recalibrate it again. I gave them 4 lenses last time a 50 cron, 35 lux asph, 90 and 28 elmarit to calibrate with and although it got better it's still not great at distance.

That said it's sick sharp for what i usually use it for which more intimate shooting

Thanks for the input folks

ccm

 

[jaapv]

A long hallway is certainly not infinity. Pick something a long way, say 1 km, off. Having said that, are you focussing by RF or just turning the lens against the infinity stop? If the latter the horizon should be as sharp as haze etc. will allow.

As for focussing on distant objects, it can be critical. Is the diopter correction on your camera correct?

Don't forget that you are able to view images at insane enlargements on your monitor with digital. The only reasonable comparison to make to film shots is on similar prints.

 

[sixb]

A long hallway is certainly not infinity. Pick something a long way, say 1 km, off. Having said that, are you focussing by RF or just turning the lens against the infinity stop? If the latter the horizon should be as sharp as haze etc. will allow.

As for focussing on distant objects, it can be critical. Is the diopter correction on your camera correct?

Don't forget that you are able to view images at insane enlargements on your monitor with digital. The only reasonable comparison to make to film shots is on similar prints.

Thanks Jaap, my point is focus becomes glaringly defocused beyond 20ish feet not just focusing at infinity. The hallway was about 50-70ft long and 6ft wide... I focused up and down the hallway walls as well as on the far wall which has a large painted type mural on it. My focusing was accurate with all cameras.

I understand your point about printed/scanned film versus digital viewed on a monitor as I was a custom color, b&w and mural printer for years before running photographic services/retouching departments in several studios and ad agencies-- That said, i'd already taken that into consideration but still thanks for your input.

It seems something is still amiss so It's going back to Leica Jersey.

Thanks ccm

 

[Ben Z]

Go outdoors on a clear day, find a vantage point where you can see buildings or radio towers or anything with fine lines at least a mile in the distance. Put the camera on a tripod, set your lens at the infinity stop (disregard the rangefinder) and take a shot. Is your distant subject sharp or soft compared to your Canon/Nikon? If sharp, the problem is with the rangefinder, skip to the next paragraph. If soft, the problem could be the lens or the body. Try other lenses. If still soft, it's the body.

If the shots were sharp in the above test, look through the rangefinder at the same subject you shot. Are the images coincided? If yes, then most likely the arm-swing-arc (gain) of the rangefinder is off. That is a more complicated adjustment, but can be DIY if you are careful and willing. If the images are not coincided, adjust the cam follower with 2mm allen key so the images are coincided.

Now try some shots at various nearer distances, like 50 ft, 20ft, 10ft, 5 ft and finally at the lens' closest focus. If the rangefinder needed only the infinity adjustment, all those other distances should be tack-sharp now also. If they aren't, then, again, it's the gain adjustment.

 

[sixb]

Go outdoors on a clear day, find a vantage point where you can see buildings or radio towers or anything with fine lines at least a mile in the distance. Put the camera on a tripod, set your lens at the infinity stop (disregard the rangefinder) and take a shot. Is your distant subject sharp or soft compared to your Canon/Nikon? If sharp, the problem is with the rangefinder, skip to the next paragraph. If soft, the problem could be the lens or the body. Try other lenses. If still soft, it's the body.

If the shots were sharp in the above test, look through the rangefinder at the same subject you shot. Are the images coincided? If yes, then most likely the arm-swing-arc (gain) of the rangefinder is off. That is a more complicated adjustment, but can be DIY if you are careful and willing. If the images are not coincided, adjust the cam follower with 2mm allen key so the images are coincided.

Now try some shots at various nearer distances, like 50 ft, 20ft, 10ft, 5 ft and finally at the lens' closest focus. If the rangefinder needed only the infinity adjustment, all those other distances should be tack-sharp now also. If they aren't, then, again, it's the gain adjustment.

Thanks Ben- Yeah I think it is the gain adjustment. I've done the infinity test on a tripod as well with about 7 lenses. Focus is in at infinity and out in the 20-100 ft band and back in on closer focus.

I'm not going to mess with it- I'll just drop it off at Leica Jersey in the coming weeks

Thanks again

ccm

 

[kkibrisli]

Thanks Ben- Yeah I think it is the gain adjustment. I've done the infinity test on a tripod as well with about 7 lenses. Focus is in at infinity and out in the 20-100 ft band and back in on closer focus.

I'm not going to mess with it- I'll just drop it off at Leica Jersey in the coming weeks

Thanks again

ccm

I wouldn't attempt this myself, but here is more information.

 

[peterm1]

I had the reverse - reasonably accourate at distance but WAAAAY out up close.

Do a Google search and you will find lots of posts about problems with M8s and M9s back focussing at either distance or up close.

Mine seemed to be getting worse (and like you I tried several lenses - Leica, Canon and Voigtlander) so I laid out a pinewood board maybe two meters long and marked it in 50mm increments. There was a central focusing point in the middle of the board and the 50mm increments were marked both behind and in front of this spot so I could clearlyy identify if the lenses were focussing ahead or behind the point of focus.

I then laid it on the floor so the central focus point was a measured three meters from me and tried with various lenses - each wide open then stopped down one and then two stops. I shot each shot first with the rangefinder then with the scale markings on the lens set to 3 meters for comparison. (Three meters was good for me as all my lenses had 3 metres marked on the scale.) With each shot I wrote on a piece of paper which was laid with the board information on the lens used, the f stop used and whether it was a shot using rangefinder or scale. That way I had a complete record that could be used by my technician and he could see with each lens tested of focus was off (by comparing the scale result with the rangefinder result at each f stop) and because the baord was marked with the distance away from the focusing point he could see by how mauch it was off.

I took the camera and a representaive lens to my technician. He adjusted it spot-on for a cost of $150 which in the corcumstances I think was reasonable.

You could do the same but set measured focussing points up much further away (some people find it convenient to use a picked fence in much the same way as I did.).

There is evidently both a short range and a long range adjustment on the rangefinder arm. You are lucky as the infinity adjustment is apparently easier.

My technician said he had never seen a Leica so far off and could not understand (absent drop ir a knock which I excluded) why this problem had occurred. But I have read SO many posts on various sites on the internet about just this issue that I am convinced that there is something about the M8 and M9 rangfinder / arm / cam design that allows it to go out of whack for no apparent reason. No one has adequately explained to me why my camera could focus adequately a few months ago then start backfocussing with the same lenses when it had not suffered any trauma.

Many people make their own infinity adjustment. I would rather pay the money. Its a dreadfully time consuming trial and error process, each time necessitating making an adjustment to the rangfinder cam (for which the lens must be removed) then putting the lens on, taking a shot, checking results on the LCD then removing the lens and making further adjustments one after the other. You need a steady hand and sharp eyes. So I shelled out the cash instead. Of course its much easier with digital than film so there is that blessing.

 

[Richard G]

I notice when mounting lenses on my M9 that I am much more likely to bump the rangefinder roller arm with a wide angle than when mounting the same lenses on my film Ms. I am now being very careful mounting lenses.

So far mine is perfect for all my lenses and at all distances. I have formally tested only the C Sonnar 50, but distant shots are very sharp, including with the Sonnar.