Mackinaw
Think Different
Sure I believe it. Stefan Daniel suggested the possibility of a B&W-only Leica digital camera at a LHSA meeting a few years back.
Jim B.
Jim B.
Marel
Established
For those that want to shoot digital, and prefer b&w, it's not only reasonable, but also very important, to have the ability to take pictures that are natively in that format. With a regular digital camera b&w is always an afterthought, not a prerequisite. Having color stripped away from the outset changes the way you look at the world when shooting. I at least react very differently to my surroundings when my camera is loaded with color film or b&w film. I'm positive that a b&w only digital camera would be a huge hit, and I would bet that not only Leica could market such a camera sell, but also Fuji and Olympus with their mirrorless cameras.
tbarker13
shooter of stuff
Define "huge."
I don't doubt that a lot of people in this forum (as well as some like-minded folks) would like the idea of a B&W camera. But 90 percent of that interest in going to drain away when we see an $8,000+ pricetag.
Really, we are talking about a niche within a niche.
I'm not even sure I'd be interested - and 90 percent of what I do is B&W. I'd just have to see real compelling evidence that this B&W-only sensor would be a marked improvement over what I get from my color sensor.
huntjump
Well-known
Price will be a huge factor for how "huge" this would be. Given its leica, i agree its going to exceed $5,000, even with components (like an lcd) are removed. not sure how many people could afford to buy a B&W only camera.
I respect Leica in some ways not sending production to a country with cheap labor, but at the same time it forecloses me from affording what would be an ideal camera for me. I would stretch at $3,000 for one, but since its likely to be $5,000-$7,995, i wont be buying one even if it was everything i wanted.
I respect Leica in some ways not sending production to a country with cheap labor, but at the same time it forecloses me from affording what would be an ideal camera for me. I would stretch at $3,000 for one, but since its likely to be $5,000-$7,995, i wont be buying one even if it was everything i wanted.
totifoto
Well-known
Well I thought if there would be no LCD the could save a lot on making it, dont know about making a B&W sensor though, maybe that is very expensive.
If it will be 8000+ the image quality has to be something that has never been seen before, a camera with limitations like b&w only and no LCD cant be priced this high.
Marel
Established
Here I was talking about the principle, not the label 'Leica' and the prices that fallow that name.
BobYIL
Well-known
Cal,
Below are two typical applications of a 16MP CCD sensor ; one is monochromatic and the other one color, both are the same sensor made by Kodak, same overall dimensions, same pixel count and as you note the same (!) dynamic ranges too. What differs? Only the sensitivity: One is 0.1 lux @f1.4 (color) and the other one 0.01 lux (monochromatic). If you add the R,G and B curves on the Quantum Efficiency plot graphically you will end up more or less with a similar looking but somewhat lower efficiency curve of the Monochromatic Quantum Efficiency + some IR portion away from the visible light due to (almost) no filter layer on the monochromatic sensor. Further, removing the CFA (color filter array) without pixel binning may lead only to comperatively lower sensitivity compared to the one with CFA which would not be desired by Leica (or any other sensor user), especially these days while even the APS-C sensors are claiming perfectly usable ISO-6400. (See the new XP1, setting a standard for IQ! Yes, just pray that Leica would catch up with the rest of industry, at least for B&W..)
As for signal processing: I hope and wish Leica could come up with an excellent OOC jpeg capability to provide some convenience for the users.. How Fujifilm succeeded with such state-of-art in camera processing to deliver examplary OOC color photos with film simulation! Leica is supposed to do the same for a much simpler B&W processing this time.
http://www.avigilon.com/products/datasheets/16MP-HD-PRO-C.pdf
http://www.avigilon.com/products/datasheets/16MP-HD-PRO-M.pdf
(BTW, I too listen to single-ended triodes, I am 11 years of your senior and am still developing my own films since 50 years..
)
jippiejee
Well-known
I heard rumors that the Leica announcement will be about a Leica M-wet plate collodion version. Insider information, couldn't get confirmation, but very interesting indeed if true.
squirrel$$$bandit
Veteran
Tell that to Salgado.
I don't think a LCD costs a lot to implement. I mean, they are included on cameras as cheap as $50 these days.
As for $8,000... the M9-P costs this much exactly and could arguably be less niche than a B&W only model. Leicas are NEVER cheap. They do not compete with mainstream camera manufacturers nor do they do the volume of these companies. Unfortunately, they are a luxury company.
Very true.
BobYIL
Well-known
Salgado is still using a 4x5 internegative..
elmer3.5
Well-known
What´s the comercial point of making such a camera? The m9 has been a comercial hit...the estimated production run out quickly as i know...
When the m8 was announced i thought it would retain the cloth shutter and mechanical advance...
Now a sensor just for B&W?
As i know sensors don´t "see" colours they capture light wave lenghts, frequencies...for doing that the sensor will capture that and then automatically erase colours to set only B&W? looks odd...but of course i´m no technician..
When the m8 was announced i thought it would retain the cloth shutter and mechanical advance...
Now a sensor just for B&W?
As i know sensors don´t "see" colours they capture light wave lenghts, frequencies...for doing that the sensor will capture that and then automatically erase colours to set only B&W? looks odd...but of course i´m no technician..
But what does the process start with? a digital camera.
willie_901
Veteran
It seems the speculative B&W sensor would see either black (no light at all), pure white (more light than the sensor can record) and everything in between. Everything but pure black and pure white would be divided into bits. If the sensor could record 14 bits of data, the light for each photo-site at all frequencies would be assigned a value from 1 to 16,384.
There would be no matrix of RGB microlenses over the photo sites. This could improve sensitivity and also reduce the level of some optical artifacts. There may still be IR filtering as recording IR photons reduces dynamic range. You waste bits digitizing light that is not required to compute an image.
Some people claim IR light enhances the aesthetics of B&W images. I always attributed this point of view to excuse making for the initial M8 embarrassment.
There would be no matrix of RGB microlenses over the photo sites. This could improve sensitivity and also reduce the level of some optical artifacts. There may still be IR filtering as recording IR photons reduces dynamic range. You waste bits digitizing light that is not required to compute an image.
Some people claim IR light enhances the aesthetics of B&W images. I always attributed this point of view to excuse making for the initial M8 embarrassment.
J. Borger
Well-known
It's very plausible. The only Leica affienados who have not yet switched to Digital are the die hard B&W film shooters. Combine that with the fact that (at least in my perception) the majority of M8 & M9 pictures posted on the web are B&W converted.
So it makes A LOT OF SENSE to target the B&W market IF they have a spectacular product at hand.
There is also the possibility of crosselling the B&W only camera giving their wealthy customerbase.
So it al depends on how good the B&W only camera is compared to B&W film. And how much better it is compared to a converted digital file from the M9.
It would be an exciting camera, although i doubt it can substitute B&W film for me personally.
So it makes A LOT OF SENSE to target the B&W market IF they have a spectacular product at hand.
There is also the possibility of crosselling the B&W only camera giving their wealthy customerbase.
So it al depends on how good the B&W only camera is compared to B&W film. And how much better it is compared to a converted digital file from the M9.
It would be an exciting camera, although i doubt it can substitute B&W film for me personally.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Cal,
Below are two typical applications of a 16MP CCD sensor ; one is monochromatic and the other one color, both are the same sensor made by Kodak, same overall dimensions, same pixel count and as you note the same (!) dynamic ranges too. What differs? Only the sensitivity: One is 0.1 lux @f1.4 (color) and the other one 0.01 lux (monochromatic). If you add the R,G and B curves on the Quantum Efficiency plot graphically you will end up more or less with a similar looking but somewhat lower efficiency curve of the Monochromatic Quantum Efficiency + some IR portion away from the visible light due to (almost) no filter layer on the monochromatic sensor. Further, removing the CFA (color filter array) without pixel binning may lead only to comperatively lower sensitivity compared to the one with CFA which would not be desired by Leica (or any other sensor user), especially these days while even the APS-C sensors are claiming perfectly usable ISO-6400. (See the new XP1, setting a standard for IQ! Yes, just pray that Leica would catch up with the rest of industry, at least for B&W..)
As for signal processing: I hope and wish Leica could come up with an excellent OOC jpeg capability to provide some convenience for the users.. How Fujifilm succeeded with such state-of-art in camera processing to deliver examplary OOC color photos with film simulation! Leica is supposed to do the same for a much simpler B&W processing this time.
http://www.avigilon.com/products/datasheets/16MP-HD-PRO-C.pdf
http://www.avigilon.com/products/datasheets/16MP-HD-PRO-M.pdf
(BTW, I too listen to single-ended triodes, I am 11 years of your senior and am still developing my own films since 50 years..
Bob,
Thanks for the explaination. I found an article that explained that removing the Bayer Matrix Filters might only be a 10% increase in resolution, (Better Photography Magazine), and they stated they could not see a difference between the Achromatic+ and a B&W image made withe the color P45+ (39 megapixel) that the Achromatic+ is based on. Not sure if this difference would be more visible on a smaller sensor that had less megapixels.
Perhaps there could be advantages in signal processing that might advance resolution because of the lack of three component signals is a less complicated technology, but they also stated that there are also some possible good advantages to maintaining the Bayer Matrix like boosting or attenuating different wavelenths of light for contrast control.
Perhaps the signal processing is where the real advances will occur like you suggest. Also know that I built my Stereo from a kit (Parabees and Straight Eights from Doc Bottlehead).
Thanks again,
Cal
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
You expressed exactly how I feel. I'm one of those B&W film only guys who does not even scan. I'm hoping it will be a spectacular product so I can become more Leica-centric, but B&W digital will be more like a separate medium for me with a very-very steep learning curve.
I will still shoot film so in that regard nothing changes, except that I would sell a lot of non Leica gear to finance a M10. Also I expect a B&W M10 to be more expensive than a M9P. Hopefully they make a retro-looking chrome version for me.
Cal
tbarker13
shooter of stuff
This is a company with a long history of special edition cameras. And while I'm no Leica historian, I'd be shocked if any special edition camera sold for less than the camera it was derived from.
Even if the underlying price of the components is a little lower, the manufacturing costs for a limited run would have to be spread over a much smaller number of cameras.
Particular
a.k.a. CNNY, disassembler
This is a little different from what I was told. Supposedly it is a new technology. The collodion plate is heated to evaporation point which then allows the image to be sent to a digital cloud. Informally the engineers refer to it as the 'Hot Air Sensor'.