JPSuisse
Well-known
Hi all,
in another post, there is already 4 pages of M9T bashing with only one objective post. So, this thread is supposed to ask questions about innovations and the positive side. Sure, the camera looks a lot different, and maybe not so great, in my opinion. But I don't care so much about aesthetics. I want to take good pictures.
My thoughts:
1.) The electronic frame lines could be great, because automatically we'll get the right frame lines for all lenses. We will no longer be limited to, for example, just the paired combinations like 50 and 75, etc. Also, there will not be pairs of frame lines, which is basically ergonomically confusing. I have lost a shot because I took the 50 frame lines in a hurry and not the 75 frame lines.
2.) If future lenses from Leica are equipped with an encoder (glass scale maybe?) some place, we could also even get more accurate framing, because the electronic view finder could be "moved" according to focal length choosen exactly as needed. (Close ups vs. distance framing)
3.) Finally, you would also get focal length in your EXIF data too, if the lenses had an encoder... Having this information available might have some relevance, but I'm not sure how this input would improve the pictures any.
So, any other ideas?
JP
in another post, there is already 4 pages of M9T bashing with only one objective post. So, this thread is supposed to ask questions about innovations and the positive side. Sure, the camera looks a lot different, and maybe not so great, in my opinion. But I don't care so much about aesthetics. I want to take good pictures.
My thoughts:
1.) The electronic frame lines could be great, because automatically we'll get the right frame lines for all lenses. We will no longer be limited to, for example, just the paired combinations like 50 and 75, etc. Also, there will not be pairs of frame lines, which is basically ergonomically confusing. I have lost a shot because I took the 50 frame lines in a hurry and not the 75 frame lines.
2.) If future lenses from Leica are equipped with an encoder (glass scale maybe?) some place, we could also even get more accurate framing, because the electronic view finder could be "moved" according to focal length choosen exactly as needed. (Close ups vs. distance framing)
3.) Finally, you would also get focal length in your EXIF data too, if the lenses had an encoder... Having this information available might have some relevance, but I'm not sure how this input would improve the pictures any.
So, any other ideas?
JP
tightsqueez
Well-known
The M9 bashing is nothing new. A lot of it stems from the inability to afford the camera, which I can understand wholeheartedly. It is a pity that so very few get to actually use the camera for what it was meant for; taking pictures.
Since most lenses now are coded, I think this idea of bringing up a single frame line with the new LED would be amazing. Gone are the days of cluttered viewfinders. Being able to program various viewable data would be nice for some but I personally have no interest in something like that. The picture matters most and a clean view is best in my opinion.
I'm sure as time goes by they will be able to make the next M smaller. www.leicarumors.com posted a bunch of "gallery" shots of the M9T. The third image on the top (all the way to the right) shows a few prototype possibilities of what is to come. The smoother edge concept I think is inviting.
It may be hard to see Leica's reasoning behind on the M9T(cost, material, styling, etc.) but I think it potentially points in the right direction in some areas.
And now that more images have been posted, I don't think the M9T is that bad after all - it's kinda grown on me (minus the cost). To tell you the truth the new Fuji X100 was exciting at first but now after seeing it for what it is... I'm not excited as much about it.
Since most lenses now are coded, I think this idea of bringing up a single frame line with the new LED would be amazing. Gone are the days of cluttered viewfinders. Being able to program various viewable data would be nice for some but I personally have no interest in something like that. The picture matters most and a clean view is best in my opinion.
I'm sure as time goes by they will be able to make the next M smaller. www.leicarumors.com posted a bunch of "gallery" shots of the M9T. The third image on the top (all the way to the right) shows a few prototype possibilities of what is to come. The smoother edge concept I think is inviting.
It may be hard to see Leica's reasoning behind on the M9T(cost, material, styling, etc.) but I think it potentially points in the right direction in some areas.
And now that more images have been posted, I don't think the M9T is that bad after all - it's kinda grown on me (minus the cost). To tell you the truth the new Fuji X100 was exciting at first but now after seeing it for what it is... I'm not excited as much about it.
M4-I-Love
Established
Is the led illumination something like what is in the Fuji X100 or is it just a led bulb illuminating the old metal mask providing the framelines. Basically, instead of a light gathering window, they put a led bulb inside to shine through the masks. Its confusing since they keep saying LED. If there is a small screen projecting the framelines, shouldnt they also mention LCD if this is the case? 
sc_rufctr
Leica nuts
Sorry but I don't get the bashing.
This camera is beautiful and innovative. It's not on my wish list but I can see its relevance.
Some people just need to grow up.
This camera is beautiful and innovative. It's not on my wish list but I can see its relevance.
Some people just need to grow up.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
There is not much innovative about it. They used a LED bulb to illuminate the same old framelines, instead of projecting controllable led generated ones á la Fuji X100, they had somebody designer-spoil the body and they "borrowed" the Streetshooter holster and Leicagoodies' SLING.... Now if it had been really innovative, say with Led projected framelines and RF patch, opto-mechanical focus confirmation, adjustable dioptre, maestro technology, Dalsa's high-res sensor, etc, I would have hailed it as an indicator of the way Leica is thinking for the M10, even if it had cost 220000 Euro.
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iwaki
Member
Reading this comments from Jaap made me smile, I sure didn't expect that from him. As an M9 owner myself I completely agree. That was no innovation.
Neare
Well-known
It will be interesting to hear how this new led viewfinder impacts on the battery. Such as will the frame lines stay on continuously while the switch is on so it eats away at the battery? Or will the frame lines only pop up when you depress the shutter... which I'm sure may provide some handling annoyances down the line.
But hey.. it's a collectors camera. Another one most of us shouldn't get worked up over.
But hey.. it's a collectors camera. Another one most of us shouldn't get worked up over.
robklurfield
eclipse
M4-I-Love
Established
clicker
Well-known
If you can afford it and want it-buy it.
Ben Z
Veteran
Car makers come up with design projects all the time for auto shows. Sometimes some of the designs end up incorporated in future production models. There's really nothing wrong with the practice, and lucky for Leica they can recoup some of the cost by selling it in limited numbers to collectors and afficionadoes, unlike the car makers where it's too uneconomical to get these show cars certified for sale. OTOH, a company such as Leica who is perennially crying the blues about limited R&D funds, I think (personal opinion here) should better funnel those limited funds into solving some existing issues. For one, improvements in firmware to completely solve the red-edge issue, and for another, improvement in sensor cover-glass/microlenses to completely solve the residual issue of IR color casts which the M9 still exhibits to some degree. Then there's the issue of high-ISO noise, which the M9 improves on the M8, but still lags far behind the state of the art (a gap bound only to grow larger with the next generation of Nikon/Canon). If profits from selling these $22K desk adornments helps Leica in that regard, then I'm with them.
JPSuisse
Well-known
Well, I liked DoubleNegatives input on that one. But, Jaap's info didn't motivate me. I was really hoping for some innovative content. Now that I'm basically wrong, I may go over to the bashers...
wgerrard
Veteran
JP, if Leica thought the things you cite as innovations were sufficient to carry the day, why didn't they skip the titanium bit and put them into a bumped-up M9? It's the titanium bit, and the expectation that people will think that's the big deal, that is disappointing.
eleskin
Well-known
Theatre of the Absurd in hard economic times.
Theatre of the Absurd in hard economic times.
Maybe this was a stunt by Leica for fundraising they need. In this economy, it looks really bad though. It makes them look they are more concerned with the customers that are not impacted by the economic downturn. If they were really smart, they would have built a smaller CL like camera with an M8 sized sensor with much improved ISO for half the price of the M9. The fact that they did not is really too bad. I hate when people say Leica is a rich mans toy. I am a professional photographer and I do not buy toys burt am more concerned the effect lenses have on forming the final photograph. Right now, Fuji has my attention more than Leica does. I really hope they make a camera with the M mount that is priced right for people who actually want to make real photographs instead of producing photo jewelry.
the sad thing here is that if Leica made a cheaper CL style digital, it would help them much more than this silly Titanium abomination. They would cater to real shooters. Instead, they catered to people who do not give a damn about the plight of those who are suffering in the bad economy. Shame on them.
Theatre of the Absurd in hard economic times.
Maybe this was a stunt by Leica for fundraising they need. In this economy, it looks really bad though. It makes them look they are more concerned with the customers that are not impacted by the economic downturn. If they were really smart, they would have built a smaller CL like camera with an M8 sized sensor with much improved ISO for half the price of the M9. The fact that they did not is really too bad. I hate when people say Leica is a rich mans toy. I am a professional photographer and I do not buy toys burt am more concerned the effect lenses have on forming the final photograph. Right now, Fuji has my attention more than Leica does. I really hope they make a camera with the M mount that is priced right for people who actually want to make real photographs instead of producing photo jewelry.
the sad thing here is that if Leica made a cheaper CL style digital, it would help them much more than this silly Titanium abomination. They would cater to real shooters. Instead, they catered to people who do not give a damn about the plight of those who are suffering in the bad economy. Shame on them.
Paul Luscher
Well-known
I think the LED illuminated framelines are a good idea. Shoot a lot in dark places and I know that in dim lighting the framelines in a standard M become very hard to see.
Along those lines--I don't know why no one has invented a clip-on frameline illuminator for the M, like the one Nikon made way back when, for the SP rangefinder. I'd be willing to pay for something like that....
Along those lines--I don't know why no one has invented a clip-on frameline illuminator for the M, like the one Nikon made way back when, for the SP rangefinder. I'd be willing to pay for something like that....
ferider
Veteran
Check "Shine" at Leicagoodies.com, Paul.
Tony Rose
Sponsor
M9 Titanium Kit
M9 Titanium Kit
Unfortunately I will sell everyone we can have delivered from Leica USA. Probably only a very few kits will ever be bought within the USA.
M9 Titanium Kit
Unfortunately I will sell everyone we can have delivered from Leica USA. Probably only a very few kits will ever be bought within the USA.
Paul Luscher
Well-known
Thanks, Ferider. The only quibble I have with "Shine" is that I wish it was just a tad more discreet. I can see me attracting a lot of unwanted attention with what looks like a mini-light saber sprouting from my camera.
Dunno if you've ever seen the SP illuminator. It was a tiny wheat-grain light bulb which shone into the frameline window itself. All the casual observer would see from the outside was a black cylinder over the frameline window. That's kinda what I'm thinking of.
Dunno if you've ever seen the SP illuminator. It was a tiny wheat-grain light bulb which shone into the frameline window itself. All the casual observer would see from the outside was a black cylinder over the frameline window. That's kinda what I'm thinking of.
I think the appearance is excellent. Note that the "step" in the top plate at the viewfinder end is gone, but they didn't restore the frame counter. Are we now going to refer to the different M9s as "stepper" and "non-stepper" models?
From the Leica AG website photos (such as the one below) it looks pretty clear that the M9T baseplate design has changed, apparently no longer removable. I've not been able to find a bottom view of the camera, so I'll just speculate that there is now direct access to the battery and SD card from below, probably with some sort of closures/covers.
And for the electrical connections too, as they are no longer under a rubber cover at the viewfinder end of the body.
From the Leica AG website photos (such as the one below) it looks pretty clear that the M9T baseplate design has changed, apparently no longer removable. I've not been able to find a bottom view of the camera, so I'll just speculate that there is now direct access to the battery and SD card from below, probably with some sort of closures/covers.
And for the electrical connections too, as they are no longer under a rubber cover at the viewfinder end of the body.
Rik
Established
But these are not innovations, as Jaap pointed out, 'borrowed' at best from already existing (and much cheaper!) offerings to the Leica user!