Major Apple Laptop Design Flaw

[Rob-F]

One of the main risks is that a LiPo's capacity depends on temperature (and falls at lower temperatures). The greatest danger is from an over-charged battery, so if you charge it in a warm place and then put it somewhere cold it becomes over-charged and dangerous. My suggestion would be to avoid that. If you store it in a cold place, charge it in a cold place or don't charge it fully.


Their lifespan is also reduced by the length of time spent at high or full charge and they'll last far better if not routinely charged over 90%. So those of you that charge your devices to 100% overnight are reducing battery-life. Wherever possible, I don't charge devices over 90% unless I absolutely must have 100% capacity and then I only do it as late as possible. Any device that doesn't see regular use is best stored at about half-charge, for minimum degradation.

I knew about the reduction in lifespan, but I didn't realize that overcharging can be dangerous. This might be why Leica chargers give a signal when the battery is charged to 80%. Thanks for this info, Wolves 3012. I'm going to leave my laptops off charge once they are charged to 80% or 90% from now on.

 

[wolves3012]

I knew about the reduction in lifespan, but I didn't realize that overcharging can be dangerous. This might be why Leica chargers give a signal when the battery is charged to 80%. Thanks for this info, Wolves 3012. I'm going to leave my laptops off charge once they are charged to 80% or 90% from now on.

The charger charges to 100% at the temperature the battery is at the time. Capacity increases with temperature. So the risk is this: charge to 100% indoors at (say) 25C then put the battery out in the garage at (say) 5C. Now the battery is charged beyond 100% for 5C and becomes dangerous.


Regarding charging to 80-90% only, it does extend the life. But it also means more charging cycles for a given usage (slightly), which is also an ageing factor. For something that is charged/discharged frequently one probably balances the other (ish) but most devices aren't in continous use.

 

[RichC]

The Samsung Galaxy Note 7-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Galaxy_Note_7

The one that burst into flames on an airliner. That one, Samsung discontinued the product after the incident.

Not my phone! What happened to mine applies to all and every lithium battery! Samsung's Note phone is a red herring for this discussion!

 

[Timmyjoe]

I started this thread as a frustrating rant about losing a computer that was dear to me, and I'm glad I did as there has been some really good information shared by everyone. Thank You.

I did call Apple, and so far they have not been helpful. The first reaction was 'it's an old computer, that's too bad'. When I insisted that wasn't a satisfactory answer, I got bumped up to a higher level and they said they'd look into it and let me know something on Monday. Not holding my breath.

Someone mentioned that Apple would want to fix this immediately, for fear of it exploding or catching fire would hurt their reputation. I had forgotten that about seven years ago my wife's iPhone 4s had an expanding battery and when she brought it to an Apple Store, they couldn't replace it fast enough, for no charge.

I'm in a bit of a predicament as I don't really want this computer in the house in case it does catch fire, but the only other option is to put it outside, and currently we're having -8º F temps, and the battery was probably at about 75% charge the day before it expanded. From reading what is listed above, my fear is the sub-zero temps could cause it to burst into flames. I would like to try to get the data off the hard drive before it melts.

Best,
-Tim

 

[raydm6]

So far, so good...

I have a 2018 MacBook Pro as my work issued rig and have so far have had no issues. It is usually plugged in at work and at home when working as I have several work apps running and monitoring (Outlook, Slack, Teams, Firefox browser accessing cloud software) and will drain quickly if not left plugged in during the workday.

Sometimes I run it untethered and let the battery drain down occasionally.

Microsoft Teams client seems to really drain the battery and affect high CPU usage but there are some workarounds published on the net.

So far, I've been happy with performance. Also no issues - batteries or otherwise - with iPhones, iPad, and iMac products...

 

[Larry Cloetta]

The charger charges to 100% at the temperature the battery is at the time. Capacity increases with temperature. So the risk is this: charge to 100% indoors at (say) 25C then put the battery out in the garage at (say) 5C. Now the battery is charged beyond 100% for 5C and becomes dangerous.
.

So perhaps this is the real reason you can carry all the lithium batteries you want with you inside the aircraft, but not in checked baggage? Because they are more dangerous in the hold where it is much colder? That never made any sense to me otherwise.
Thanks to Wolves for the informative posts.

 

[wolves3012]

I'm in a bit of a predicament as I don't really want this computer in the house in case it does catch fire, but the only other option is to put it outside, and currently we're having -8º F temps, and the battery was probably at about 75% charge the day before it expanded. From reading what is listed above, my fear is the sub-zero temps could cause it to burst into flames. I would like to try to get the data off the hard drive before it melts.

Best,
-Tim

It's unlikely to become over-charged from 75%, so that would not give me cause for concern in itself. The swollen battery is a definite risk though, you should put it somewhere outdoors but under cover if you possibly can. If it's feasible to do, could you remove the hard-drive beforehand? At least that way your data is safe. It doesn't look like you'll be able to fire (no pun intended) the machine up safely anyway.

 

[wolves3012]

So perhaps this is the real reason you can carry all the lithium batteries you want with you inside the aircraft, but not in checked baggage? Because they are more dangerous in the hold where it is much colder? That never made any sense to me otherwise.
Thanks to Wolves for the informative posts.

I'm not sure if that's the reason or not, airlines aren't always the sharpest when it comes to making decisions of that sort. However, LiPos are safer in a cabin where any incidents should be spotted and dealt with pronto. In a cargo hold, the risk is that it goes undetected until it's catastrophic. Whether the temperature factor is intentional or incidental I don't know.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Not my phone! What happened to mine applies to all and every lithium battery! Samsung's Note phone is a red herring for this discussion!

Why is it a red herring? The problem was the battery. It's an example of a company taking this problem seriously, and an incident that happened on an airplane.

This problem happens on batteries from some manufacturers more than others. A well designed battery should not do this unless external damage occurs to it. Bursting into flames should be considered unacceptable for a consumer product. Apple is being sued over exploding batteries.

Maybe this is one of the reasons why Apple throttled down their older products. Not just to extend battery life, but to keep them from exploding.

 

[RichC]

Why is it a red herring? The problem was the battery. It's an example of a company taking this problem seriously, and an incident that happened on an airplane.

This problem happens on batteries from some manufacturers more than others. A well designed battery should not do this unless external damage occurs to it. Bursting into flames should be considered unacceptable for a consumer product. Apple is being sued over exploding batteries.

Maybe this is one of the reasons why Apple throttled down their older products. Not just to extend battery life, but to keep them from exploding.

Only a red herring in that the Samsung Note problem was a manufacturing flaw in their batteries specifically for this phone. Here, the laptop battery is not a systemic fault but something that can happen to any lithium battery regardless of make. Yes, this battery is clearly faulty, but it's not an Apple design issue - as we haven't heard of MacBook Airs spontaneously combusting!

OP: I can see why sticking the laptop outside is not ideal for you! You just need to avoid it setting other things on fire or damaging them, so put it in/on something non-flammable like a large pan or oven dish, and stand it on a surface that can't be harmed or you don't care about - i.e. not carpet or your dinner table!

Just because the battery's swollen doesn't mean it will catch fire or explode - it's under pressure and distorted now, so that's more likely but inevitable... But better safe than sorry!

 

[Bill Clark]

Sorry, but I need to report to you, I haven’t experienced any problems with the batteries powering my devices. And I own a fair number of them. I read and understand some have had a different experience than me.

My wife and I recently had a remodeling project, hired a general contractor who got the subs for the work. Not one single corded tool was used. Why don’t I hear about a lithium ion powered power tools have problems? Even the recip saws were lithium ion powered. Could it be that the battery comes out for re-charge and goes into a charger? Or they have pro tools with high endurance/quality?

As a past fire fighter in the Navy, I would not recommend putting batteries into checked baggage that would go on an airplane. A fire on an airplane, especially in the belly, up in the sky would be the kiss of death. How would you get to it to put it out if it happens? Even if you could, time is precious. A few seconds........

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I have bought a hundred Panasonic Toughbooks over the last 20 years for controlling embedded systems- none have had a battery problem.


If Apple Batteries and batteries in these other products are exploding and catching on fire: it is a design problem. The Samsung example- the company took the problem seriously and withdrew the product.

https://www.consumerreports.org/lap...book-pros-from-planes-over-battery-fire-risk/

Apple recalled one model of their computer due to exploding batteries. They cited 26 reports to issue the recall. You would think they would take exploding batteries in their other computers more seriously than telling the customer "That's too bad"

 

[Timmyjoe]

Got the battery out, and now it's outside the house. Had to grind off the heads of a few of the bottom case screws because the expanded battery had wedged them so tight. The case bent back into shape pretty well, so I think I'll be getting a replacement battery and see if I can get it fired up again, maybe not to use, but to at least get the data off the hard drive.

Best,
-Tim

 

[RichC]

If you get a replacement battery, I'd use the laptop as normal. Even if it's not genuine Apple, it'll probably be fine. I've used all kinds of and makes of lithium batteries for two decades, including really cheap knock-offs from China,* and only two have swelled up dangerously (both genuine batteries!). Never had a fire or anything even close. But if you search YouTube for Li battery fires, they're impressive!

* The usual problem is low capacity and short life - but the protective electronics are known to be poor... so although I've not had a fire, probably best avoided! Mine usually came with second-hand gear I bought, and as I had them I used them!

 

[wolves3012]

Got the battery out, and now it's outside the house. Had to grind off the heads of a few of the bottom case screws because the expanded battery had wedged them so tight. The case bent back into shape pretty well, so I think I'll be getting a replacement battery and see if I can get it fired up again, maybe not to use, but to at least get the data off the hard drive.


Best,
-Tim

Good result. That's one very swollen cell and outside is the best place for it, well clear of anything flammable. Make a note of whatever information is printed on it. If you want to make it completely safe, dump it in a bucket of saltwater and leave it for a week. If you're adventurous, you can snip the corners of the swollen cell to speed up the process but do that carefully and outdoors. Don't leave the bucket anywhere unsafe or unventilated. After a week, it'll be safe to put in general household waste.

 

[raid]

Some Windows computers have the same problem. I have a Microsoft Surface Pro 5 tablet, which is glued together like the Macbook and cannot be taken apart to replace the battery; it'll eventually suffer the same fate. Actually any tablet from any maker has that problem, none of them are made to be serviced.

The Surface Pro is different than most tablets in that it is a real full-powered computer, like a laptop, that runs a desktop/laptop operating system (mine has Windows 10 Pro)... so it's more like the MacBook than a tablet like an iPad.

I have the first version Surface Book, and its sealed in battery died within 3 years after purchase. I checked then for a possible repair since it is a University proprty computer, but I found out that Microsoft refused repairing the SF for a new battery. They offered a refurbished replacement SF for $500 or so (then). A friend of mine volunteered to remove the glue holding the SF together, and he replaced the battery about a year ago. The SF has been working very well since then.


This is very poor customer service by Microsoft.

 

[Darthfeeble]

Always remember and don't ever forget, in everything you do and everywhere you go.......
Multiple back ups.

 

[Timmyjoe]

Good result. That's one very swollen cell and outside is the best place for it, well clear of anything flammable. Make a note of whatever information is printed on it. If you want to make it completely safe, dump it in a bucket of saltwater and leave it for a week. If you're adventurous, you can snip the corners of the swollen cell to speed up the process but do that carefully and outdoors. Don't leave the bucket anywhere unsafe or unventilated. After a week, it'll be safe to put in general household waste.

Hey Wolves, thanks for the suggestion. I think I will do that as we only have one place around here that recycles lithiums and they're a pain in the backside to deal with.

When you say soak it in a bucket of salt water, do you mean just like it is or do I need to puncture the swollen cell (which I'm a little concerned about doing)?

Thanks.

Best,
-Tim

 

[wolves3012]

Hey Wolves, thanks for the suggestion. I think I will do that as we only have one place around here that recycles lithiums and they're a pain in the backside to deal with.

When you say soak it in a bucket of salt water, do you mean just like it is or do I need to puncture the swollen cell (which I'm a little concerned about doing)?

Thanks.

Best,
-Tim

As-is would be fine if you're wary, the saltwater basically discharges the cells to nothing - slowly - and the water mass absorbs any heat build-up there might be. As I said, you can snip the very corner(s) of the swollen cell just to let the pressure out and the saltwater in. Don't hack a huge corner off, you just want to vent the pouch itself. It's not going to explode or catch fire if you do, I've done it dozens of times to dead cells far bigger than that one. Just be cautious, in case. Do it outside and snip so the resulting hole points away from yourself. Then chuck it in the saltwater straight after.


EDIT: be aware that it'll fizzle away for some time, potentially being chlorine and hydrogen gas so somewhere ventilated if not outdoors. Not in the kitchen!

 

[mike rosenlof]

As far as the hardware goes, a Mac laptop is hardly different than other non-apple laptop computers. They're all the so-called "wintel" architecture. So I expect all are about equal in risk to these battery issues. My work laptop has had two replacements for bulging batteries in the last 6 years. A couple of my personal machines, from the same manufacturer are fine.


Linux is a great alternative for a lot of users, but I'm talking from a computer nerd point of view, so am probably biased. I'm primarily a film and chemical darkroom user, but I use Darktable and Gimp for what digital I do.