making pictures in available light

vicmortelmans

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Hi,


I'm going to take available light pictures in a pub on friday. No posed shots, people will be spontanuous and moving. What camera/lens/film to take?

Let's start with the easy part: fastest film at hand is HP5+, so that's what it'll be.

Then I was wondering which camera/lens system is the fastest.

Shutter speed is related to lens length. A 50mm lens can be shot at speeds down to 1/30, but a 28mm lens may be shot at 1/15, without much risk for loosing sharpness.

Lens speed is tricky. Obviously my fastest lens is a 50mm/f:1.4, but this has severe drawbacks: (1) the focal length only allows to go down to 1/30 in speed and (2) at f:1.4 DOF is so narrow that focus will most probably be off (remember: people moving, not much light to see where to focus anyway)....

So now I'm trying to figure out how much DOF I really need. Using a rangefinder, it doesn't matter which lens you put on, focusing is always the same (while on SLR, wide or slow lenses are harder to focus).

Let's do a mental experiment. Assume a subject at 2m distance (that's what I want to be sharp). I think I should be able to set focus as accurate as between 1.8 and 2.3m with my rangefinder quickly and in dim conditions.

If I have a 50mm lens, I need somewhere between f:4 and f:5.6 to make sure my inaccuracy won't cause blurry pictures.

If I have a 28mm lens, I can do with f:2 (that's why it's a mental experiment: I don't own that fast wide angle lenses).

So by using a wide lens, I do not only gain 1 stop because camera movement is less an issue, but I also gain two stops because of DOF!

As you see, this does not apply to SLR camera's, because on those, wide lenses are harder to focus and what you win in DOF is lost in focusing inacurracy.

So I'll take my Zorki 1 with Jupiter 12 and shoot at f:4 at 1/20...

For my ISO400 film, that's a good exposure for light values around LV6... I guess the pub will be rather close to LV4 or 5, so I'll be pushing one or two stops.

OK, that sounds feasible.

Groeten,
Vic
 
...So, I guess you don't really want any advice, huh...?

If you did, I'd advise you not to worry so much about that "50mm lens can be shot at X but 28mm can be shot at Y." Those are only rules of thumb, and don't take into account a number of factors such as the availability of support (hey, you're at a pub - rest your elbows on the bar rail) or subject movement (if people are swaying around, you'll lose more sharpness at 1/15 regardless of lens.)

My thinking would be that (a) you absolutely can't afford to use a lens slower than f/2 and (b) assuming you have both a 50 and a 28 with wide enough maximum apertures, you should just use whichever provides the better angle of view for the type of picture you want to take.

My personal preference is to avoid wide-angle lenses in indoor low-light picture-taking. Normally in low indoor light, the brightest areas are close to lamps and such, and areas farther away are just a nearly useless black. The wider your lens, the more of this uninteresting nearly-black background you're going to pick up. What I like to do is use a 50 or a 35 and then frame my shots so they mostly include light enough areas to make a decent-looking final print.

This is especially important if you're going to have to push your film. When pushing, you WILL lose shadow detail (pushing is just a trick for giving underexposed film enough highlight contrast to print easily) so you want to minimize how many of those detail-less, empty shadows you include in the frame.

If I were going to do this, I'd put my fastest lens on my camera, put my second-fastest lens in my pocket, push the film no more than 1 stop, pick the slowest shutter speed I can reasonably expect to work at that film speed rating, and then look for subjects that are in lighting conditions that will work with that film speed, shutter speed, and aperture.

I'd shoot at maximum aperture all the time, to give myself the best chance to capture a full range of tones without having to push the film too much, and rather than worry about how much depth of field I don't have, I'd just choose and compose pictures that don't demand more DOF than I'm likely to get.

It sounds as if you've already decided to do just about everything exactly the opposite of the way I'd do it, though, so good luck to you. One of the great things about photography is that there's usually more than one "right" way to do anything!
 
Push the HP5 to at least 1600, but 3200 would be better to give you fast enough shutter to avoid having virtually everyone motion-blurred while having enough depth of field to compensate for poor focusing accuracy in low light/beer fog. In my experience, most bars have lots of bright signage and little illuminating light, so you need to be very careful you aren't exposing for the signs instead of the people. Over-exposure in such a setting is near impossible, so don't be afraid to shoot slower-wider than your meter says.
 
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jlw said:
...So, I guess you don't really want any advice, huh...?

Actually, I do, and I'm glad that my self-confidence triggered you.

THanks for that! There's indeed lots of things to consider and no one-fits-all solution... Maybe I just have to bring along two lenses and switch a couple of times, to get the best of both worlds...

Groeten,

Vic
 
I mostly have the problem that the light is not where I need it, i.E. backlight or a bright background or something like that. Especialy with unposed shots this can be more than anoying and I find myself reaching for a flash even with Delta3200 in the camera.

HP5 is sensitive enough for a shot in candlelight if the subject and the photographer are in the right position, but that's a very rare opportunity.
 
After thinking on it for a bit, I have to say if I was the OP, I'd use the Jupiter-12 and push the HP5 to 1600. That way you get enough depth of field to be useful even at maximum aperture, a range of shutter speeds capable of sharp images hand-held, and a FOV that is close to ideal for interiors.
 
Vic,

can't you get some 1600 film? I would strongly recommend this (even though you seem to be set on your choice). You might even find yourself in LV3..

I think that a 50mm at f1.4 is really too narrow dof to catch anything moving, f2 at 35mm or maybe 50mm seem much more realistic to me. With a 400 film, LV4 and f2 leads to 1/15s (i.e. you will blur moving targets). So 1600 or even more seems a good choice. Using a 'genuine' 1600 film vs. a 400 one pushed 2 stops will give you much better shadow detail - or are you an admirer of lost shadows?

Anyway: have fun and don't drink to much as long as you're shooting! 😀
 
Great Tread...

Great Tread...

This is a great tutorial thread... I have not done any Pub stuff. But I have been thinking about it on the late.

I like HP5+ too. Don't have a fast 35 though, In fact, I don't one yet. But I will own a 50/2 J8 next month. Other problem, I don't develope my own film. So...

How good is the Ilford 1600 B&W film. I think it is C41 (that means, it may not scan well by my Commercial lab.
 
In a dark church, a beam of sunlight.

churchtoo.jpg
 
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