Mamiya Universal/Super Press 23

[oftheherd]

OK, I started one thread in one of the other areas, where it didn't really fit. Any Universal/Press 23 users or anyone with questions, let's do it here.

I have the Super Press 23, roll film backs, focusing screen, cut film holder back with cut film holders, extension tubes, 50mm lens, 65mm lens (currently with bad shutter), and the 100mm collapsable lens. My backs are all 6x7.

For those who may not know, these are rangefinder cameras. There is a multi-format (645, 6x6, and 6x9) holder, 6x9 roll film holders, and cut film holders available. The roll film backs except for the multi-format backs are lever driven, just like 35mm cameras, and with the left side handle which has a shutter release, these are surprisingly 35mm like, but heavier. They do tend not to be as heavy as 6x7 SLR's, or course.

OK, lets hear from others.

 

[jdos2]

I was the "pro" for a friend's wedding, using my Universal. I've a bit different setup, though, as I was using it to learn photography, I really started with a Polaroid capable camera, so I bought from Mr. Mamiya (Tony Sansone):
One Body,
Two Polaroid Backs plus the ground glass.
a 127mm lens.

And soon:
a 6x7 film back, type II.

Then:
a 6x9 film back, type II.

The camera that started my interest in photography was a poor old Mamiy RB I bought from a local Sheister store, it leaked light, and was a poor excuse for a camera (but took AWESOME pictures when it worked right) so i traded it for a 100mm f2.8 lens and a 65mm lens (my shutter is also having trouble, but it's not dead yet)

Eventually, I wanted a "wide" lens for Polaroid, and "won" a 75mm (with body and Singer 6x7 back, with the G back!) and that became the standard lens for a long time. It's in the shop right now- the technician suspects that the lens had been dropped at one time- the shutter blades fired several hundred times, then one finally fell out...

I've owned the 100 f-3.5 lens, but had trouble with it, and it went as part of the deal with the RB for the other lenses.

Actually, I've had lots of trouble with the different lenses- but that's not unexpected from a camera and lenses from the 60's (65mm) through the late 80's. It takes awesome pictures, is all. The wedding I did went off without a hitch, and the friend/bride was extremely happy with the enlargements we got from the negatives.

It was perfect for teaching photography.

 

[oftheherd]

Wow! Learning photography by taking a wedding. Glad everyone was happy. That is a difficult type of shoot. I have shot several weddings myself, always for friends who couldn't afford professional photographers. I always shot with a combination of the Super Press 23 and 35mm. Fortunately, all those I shot for were also happy. I usually donated my time and expertise as their wedding gift, and gave them the film to do with as they pleased.

Sorry to hear you have had problems, but actually, it doesn't sound to out of place. These are old cameras and sounds like you have been using them a lot.

I noticed in your other thread that you mentioned they were difficult to store for taking on trips/field use. That is indeed partly correct. I have a relatively small aluminum clam shell case that holds most of my collection. I never take the extension tubes, and if I did, something else would have to stay behind. As I said, it takes the gear, but not the camera itself. It is a bit awkward and unwieldy for sure. But for what I consider the ease of use of the camera and system, and those large negatives/slides, all is worth it.

 

[jdos2]

!

No- I didn't learn about photography at a wedding, I didn't make that clear. 🙂 I practiced for over a year beforehand, and had other wedding experience, with a Mamiya c330 (selling for eyeball problems, I just can't focus on ground glass unless I put a loupe to it)

I have had slightly "above" mechanical reliability troubles, I feel, but that the fault of the person from which I bought the camera and typically don't deal- he originally sold me a 127mm lens that had been dropped (and obviously so) and fixed, but the slow speeds went after 3 or 4 days (80 pictures with Polaroid, at the rate I was taking dark-slide/lens-cap pictures) and weeks on the turn-around. It was my only lens, of course, so all waiting was painful. The lens lasted a few minutes with me on return, as I found that the flash sync didn't work. I was sent a different lens, after returning the posessed one. After a couple months, and a different friend's wedding (at which I hadn't Photographer Responsibilities, but still provided 6x6 negatives that looked better than the "pro's" there with the huge zoom equiped 35mm that didn't do much but take the required shots in flat light, and took pictures- LOTS of 'em- of the cute niece), I had to send the poor 5 incher back- it wasn't firing. The fellow who did the maintenance claimed a strange dust in the mechanism that flooded his cleaning system... For that I've no explanation. It's been fine for over a year now, no strange dust, and it's used... Whatever.

The 65mm has always fired "funny." I can't trade it away, though the shutter sticks sometimes- it is very accurate (surprisingly so, for the Seikosha is OLD!) and the lens just takes... Well, it takes wonderfully contrasty pictures- the boys at the lab actually asked what it was when they saw the proofs. Used carefully, the 4 element lens is simply amazing.

Oh! I forgot- I've the 50mm too. It's a good unit from Columbus, Ohio (MPEX) which was worth the 130 mile drive from Cleveland.

I've found that what is difficult about lugging around the camera isn't so much the size- that's not a big deal, really. Weight, too. The issue is that the camera has lots of projections. Lens, grip, sight, and the curvy back that sticks out- you've got a hard-to-pack camera!

I've got one of the hardest decisions ever to make right now, in fact: I'm returning to Portugal for a week and a half of R-&-R. It is an extremely photogenic place, beautiful and ever so slightly sad, I love it. Black & White, Color, whatever. Lisbon and the surrounding 100km is simply a photo-a-mile, and I'll bring lots of film. Which camera should I bring? I've a Mamiya 7 with the 43mm and the 80mm lenses. I _don't_ have the 150mm, though, for portraits, so I'd have to bring along the Moskva-5 with the 6x6 mask for a slightly tight framing and decent close focus for a people picture. It has a better lens for a slightly softer look, if I choose to shoot open... ANYWAY, I can take that, OR I could take the Universal with the 50mm, 100 f-2.8 (much faster than anything on the 7!) and the 150mm. I'd probably bring a 220 and 120 RB back to keep bulk down, but even then, I'd prefer to NOT, as I've never had flatness questions about the original Mamiya backs... Ah, well Anyway. Decisions, decisions!

I like the system. Very much.

 

[oftheherd]

I hear you on decisions! My daughter was in Spain and Portugal a couple of months ago. She like both well, but seemed to prefer Spain. I think it was speaking a little of the language.

I guess it boils down to what you want to do with your photos. If you want the big negatives/slides, you almost have to go with the Universal kit. From 50mm to 150mm isn't a bad kit. Just heavy and unwieldy as we both know. I have always enjoyed 35mm photography, and loved Kodachrome 25 film as well as Ilford FP4 in b/w. But those big negatives are hard not to want.

Some day I want either the 150mm or more likely, the 250mm lens also. In my photography, I am more likely to want wide angle than long, so I am in no hurry. When I want long now, it has to be 35mm lenses. I need to get my 65mm for the Super Press fixed. You are correct about sharpness. The 50mm too. What great lenses.

I agree with the configuration of the Universal/Press 23. I guess they had a reason for making the roll film backs the way they did. Still, I got used to it pretty easily. I learned to either put the strap over my neck, or if on a shoulder, to keep it tucked under my arm. Oh well, with all its foibles, I still like it well enough that there isn't another MF system I am interested in.

 

[jdos2]

I'm unfortunately interested in all MF systems. I've a pretty complete RB67 I was thinking of, but I really have a hard time focusing on the ground glass, so that's out... Same with the Kiev 88 or the C-330 (besides, that last one I'm selling, so I'll not scratch it).

For Medium Format Rangefinders, I've the Universal and the 7. One of them will go with me. We'll see.

35mm? I have Kievs and a Nikon, that's it. I gave up on 35mm after comparing the Leica negatives to the Medium Format ones of an old Zeiss Novar 6x6 folder I had. No contest, so out went the Leica.

I'd like someday the 250mm lens too, but I hear that it's not a close focuser, so less useful for the close-up work I'd like to do. The 150mm only focuses down to 7 feet- I've a close-up set and a ground glass for closer portraits...

Ah, well. It does take nice pictures.

Do you ever shoot your 100 f-3.5 wide open? Do you like the look of the out of focus highlights from this Tessar based lens? I'm un-decided. The old Tessar designs seemed to have a bullseye effect- but I've noticed it doesn't look so bad with the Universal. I'm asking because I got rid of the 6x6 folder for the Novar lens- the terrible look of anything off center when using anything but the fastest film and stopping down...

 

[oftheherd]

Yes, I have shot wide open when it seemed necessary due to light or for DOF control. I don't think I have ever been disappointed, but perhaps I am not as discerning as you. But I don't intentionally shoot wide open with any lens unless I have a reason. Really, f/3.5 isn't all that wide open anyway, dispite the fact that many 35mm zooms don't even open that wide these days.

As to the 250mm, I don't know what its closest focusing is. I have never held one to look at. I am sure I would expect to do what you do, only I have the extension tubes and bellows back. I think what you are describing is the extension back? Do you have the simple ground glass back or the cut film ground glass back?

 

[jdos2]

I finally get to answer, after some difficult password-less time spent for work out of state...

I've not the extention tubes or backs, though someday, perhaps. I've the close-up lenses of different diopters that fit the 150, 127, and 100mm lenses. For a ground glass, I've the Mamiya "Polaroid" ground glass, which has the 6x7 and 6x9 markings on it, and shows the full field Polaroid view. It comes mounted on a 'G' back, though, so I now have two of them... Good for using the RB's back.

I ask about the wide-open shots because the design of the older Tessars left me cold, but I don't remember any pictures I've taken with the Universal that had that "bullseye" effect, unlike other Medium Format work.

Because of the discussion here, I've been carrying around again the thing- to see if I can take it along (I don't think I will) to Portugal, it's just too much of a pain. The 7 will have to do, whether or not I've a 150mm.

AND the fact that I don't think I could get the 100mm lens fixed in time- the shutter drags on the first shot of the day, and I don't think it would be a good idea to hope/pray that the lens continues to work for as long as it needs to as far away from my pro-shop...

 

[jdos2]

Mamiya 7 or Universal for Portugal? ARGH!

I'll take the 7 unless I can trade it for Leica...

 

[Doug]

Take the Mamiya 7! So much easier to pack, more convenient to traipse about with, and in Portugal will you not have more use for wide lenses than long ones?

Doug

 

[jdos2]

Oh, I've the 50mm for the Universal too, not *quite* as wide as the 43mm, but a similar lens.

I want the long one so I can take nice pictures of my friends as portraits, and I don't have the 150mm for the '7. I've been trying to talk the local pro shop into selling me theirs, but I'll bet they'll ask too much (and it's in "rather well used" shape).

I might well bring both. The Universal also has a dreamy 100mm f-2.8 lens that's rather faster than anything for the 7.

I don't have to decide for a couple days.

 

[oftheherd]

From all I have heard, the Mamiya 7 is really nice. Light and good lenses. Unfortunately, also more expensive. Since I have the Super Press 23 and don't find it objectionable to carry and use, I don't see a reason to move up to the '7. I see why you want the telephoto for portraiture. I just usually reach for a wide angle over a telephoto unless that is what I want too. Not to say I don't appreciate telephotos. I have several in 35mm formats. I still hope to acquire a 250mm for the Mamiya some day. I hear the f/5 model is better optics as well as coupling to the rangefinder. If not, I could forgo the f/5 for the f/8. I learned to extimate distance and set it on a camera years ago. Good luck on your decision and trip.

 

[jdos2]

Decision made.

I got a 150mm lens for my Mamiya 7, the need to bring the Universal along just fell, so I'm going with just that (oh, and perhaps the Moskva-5...)

About the 250mm lenses, I've too have heard that the f-8 version of the 250 is not as optically "nice" as the f-5, but I've no proof of that allegation. I bet they are both as sharp as a tack, though the f-5 would be a hornking big beast. Scale focus would be not-a-problem, especially with an f-8 lens, and a minimum focus of 20 feet!

Remember that only later Supers (and of course the Universals) could handle the 250mm (and the 75mm, strangely enough)

I'll be back in a couple weeks! Time to post a few, methinks.

 

[Picture Guy]

I have a Super 23, two 6 x 7 backs, two 100 f 3.5 ? lenses, and the ground glass focussing unit. Also the side grip.


Sadly, I rarely use it, though will never part with it. (I also got two Mamiya 645 bodies, 80mm, 55mm, 45mm.)

Currently, I am busy iwth my Bessa R 2.

It would take a really good wideangle (for landscape) to get me really excited again, but haven't see any for sale. Also would LOVE a 6 X 9 back.


My biggest beef is that the cable release from grip to lens is a real snag magnet, and the screw threads on the lens are fairly traumatized.

On other websites, I've seen statements that the Super 23/Universal film backs are prone to light leaks, but I did not see that in my testing phase.

Comments ?

 

[jdos2]

I've a 50mm for landscapes on the camera, and a 75mm when I want to do wide angle Polaroids. Both are nice, and expensive for the camera though rather inexpensive over all.

There have been two occasions where I though there might be a dark-slide light leak, but I just tested the camera in full sunshine, twisting the back (the common complaint is that the backs are long and thin- making light leaks easier by twisting) and taking out/putting in the dark slide each and every shot.

No problems.

Have you snagged the cable? I've not yet, really, though I'm always aware of it and adjust accordingly.

Do you know Tony Sansone? Mr. Mamiya Press? He can be a pretty good, if slow resource.

 

[Picture Guy]

I first heard of Tony Samsone on the old Medium Format Website.

I have never used him, though I sent him a few queries by email.

 

[oftheherd]

For sure the 50mm on the Mamiya really rocks. I have one without the finder, but that is a minor inconvenience as the 65mm finder at 6x9 marks is a close approximation.

As to light leaks, I have never had one with a roll film nor cut film back. Mine are at the point where I need to replace the foam in both types or I may start getting light leaks though. I suspect any light leaks are from abusing the roll film holders when they are open. I have seen some that had been abused that way. In fact I have acquired one that I haven't tested yet. It may be a leaker, but doesn't look like it.

Edit: BTW Picture Guy, if you have the cut film focusing back, I think the cut film holders are 6x9. I will measure when I think of it and let you know for sure. I have them but haven't used them in years. I hope to again soon. They were fun to use.

 

[dfharper]

Hello All,

Just a quick note of introduction: My name is David Harper,
I collect old MF range finders, I have the following:
6x6,6x9 Moskva-4
6x9 crown graphic (110 optar)
1x mamiya standard
1x mamiya deluxe
1x 6x9 k back with masks (6x4.5, and 6x6)
1x 6x7 k back
65mm w/finder
90mm

the Mamiya's are my latest obsession.
🙂

I've found a couple of decent websites where I downloaded a lot of general info, but I can't find a manual on-line for the deluxe. Does anyone know where I can find a copy?

Also, any words of advice (does and don'ts) about the mamiya's

Thanks in Advance

 

[oftheherd]

Check manuals on ebay (of course, buyer beware always), until you find a seller called (I think), Nikondave. He has a lot of manuals. Actually, anyone who sells manuals is likely to have more than one. If they don't have what you want listed, emal them and ask. I think most Mamiya Universal/Press cameras were about the same, until the Press itself. Actually, I seem to recall that one of the earlier models had a bayonet mount, rather than a breach lock bayonet mount. There were some other minor differences such as only two windows for the rangefinder versus three on the later ones. But, I think all lenses work across the board. If not, hopefully, someone can jump in and correct me. How do you like the Mamiya 6x7/6x9 cameras?

 

[jdos2]

Mamiya themselves (http://www.mamiya.com) has manuals for the Universal in PDF, along with the newer lenses and their "approved" DOF information. You have to hit the site with IE as the browser, go to Customer Services and dig around in the "Rangefinder" area for a bit.

The Press had two different backs, either one accepting Mamiya backs (with twisties at the bottom to hold the back) or the Graflex backs with the standard rails. The Press couldn't take the Polaroid back, that was the "Universal" that could. Lens mounts are different only in the most modern cameras, the older ones not able to accept the 250 f-5 lens and the (strangely!) 75mm Polaroid wide.

I like mine. I like the bright 100 f-2.8 and the beautiful 50mm... Actually, I've several lenses and found no faults, except for the standard ones for a camera this old- i.e. always get a CLA on the lenses, as they'll need it.

As for suggestions about the use of the camera, my best "win" was when I got into habits. Get a plan, stick with it, as it is a very easy camera to take dark-slide or lens-cap images. I'm in the middle of changing habits from "shoot-wind" to "wind-shoot" and it's a pain:

1. Remove dark slide
2. Remove lens cap
3. Meter
4. Adjust shutter and aperture
5. Wind film
6. Focus
7. Compose and re-focus
8. Take shot

(lens cap on and dark slide in if necessary)
Follow the steps and dark-slide shots drop to nothing. I knew I had arrived when I feel like something is wrong when I'm trying to take a picture with the dark slide or lens cap in place.