Marks on developed 120 film - acceptable?

[Niels]

Hi guys n gals.

Havnt been too active with my Fuji670 - but enjoying it when I am!

Recently I had 3 rolls of film developed "in town", a small place reasonably close to where I live. People there are friendly, and overall Im happy with the package.

One thing though - that may come down to my own ignorace: the films have some nasty "clamp-marks" on the last frame (see link/picture). I asked the good folks in the shop, and was told that this is necessary to be sure the film is not dropped in the process (they are developing a larger amount of film in the same batch, as I understand it). For 35mm film there is enough space for the clamps, without damaging the frames, but not for a full packed 120 film..

Should I accept this, or try to find another firm? As mentioned Im really happy with this place othervise.

ps: apologies for all the dust on the pictures 🙂

Kind Regards

http://i.pbase.com/g4/33/650733/2/143262346.ttZQNzQA.jpg

 

[whitecat]

Link does not work.......

For me the marks would not be acceptable.

 

[Jamie123]

Hi guys n gals.

Havnt been too active with my Fuji670 - but enjoying it when I am!

Recently I had 3 rolls of film developed "in town", a small place reasonably close to where I live. People there are friendly, and overall Im happy with the package.

One thing though - that may come down to my own ignorace: the films have some nasty "clamp-marks" on the last frame (see link/picture). I asked the good folks in the shop, and was told that this is necessary to be sure the film is not dropped in the process (they are developing a larger amount of film in the same batch, as I understand it). For 35mm film there is enough space for the clamps, without damaging the frames, but not for a full packed 120 film..

Should I accept this, or try to find another firm? As mentioned Im really happy with this place othervise.

ps: apologies for all the dust on the pictures 🙂

Kind Regards

http://i.pbase.com/g4/33/650733/2/143262346.ttZQNzQA.jpg

Can't open the link either.

It's certainly not normal and you should not pay for a roll with a damaged frame. However, unless they're using really big clamps there should be enough room to attach to the film without hitting a frame. How's the frame spacing on that roll? If the spacing's too big it may be an issue with the camera.

Finding a good lab is really tough these days. I have one in walking distance and they're really quick but they've messed up my C-41 a few times so now I have to bring it to another pro lab across town (granted, it's not a large town). The one nearby still does a good job on E6, though, so I use them for that. So basically I'm now bringing different films to different labs. If yours is good for 35mm you might want to consider keeping them for that and finding another one for medium format.

 

[MartinP]

(If the link is copied into a new window then it works fine - probably the hosting-site you linked to does not allow hot-linking.)

It appears that you have images right at the end of the film strip where there would usually be several unused centimetres of film for handling purposes.. This problem shouldn't happen if the start point is set-up right and the 'right' number of shots are taken.

Did you perhaps shoot more than the expected ten images on the roll? Alternatively, the gap between frames looks quite big - if that is the case all along the roll, then it will cause the last shot to be off the end of the film. This can be seen in one of the rolls where only half of the 6x7 image is still on the film!

If the lens is removable (I don't know about this Fuji and haven't looked it up, sorry) then you can check the winding spacing by using a 120 backing-paper and marking the frame positions in pencil through the throat of the camera.

So....
Check that you have lined up the start mark perfectly
Check that image one is actually by the "1" on the negs
Check that there are only ten images made
Check for an even and small gap between frames

And have fun with the huge negs 🙂

 

[haempe]

This issue is inherent in the system of dip and dunk development.
There is no way to develop a film without a weighting clamp at the end.
The last 2 cm of every roll belongs to the clamp.

 

[Niels]

Thx for answers and suggestions.

Films are Fujicolor Pro 160S. Frames of course 6x7 (Fuji 670 camera) and I got 10 frames on 2 of the films, with 5mm and 4mm space and the end of these films - can any 6x7 shooter confirm this as a "normal end-space"?

Third film gave 9 1/2 because I f***** up freezing my fingers off 🙂 Gap between frames mid-film a bit uneven, but between 7-11mm - mostly 9mm. Is that too much, I wonder?

I try to be precise on the Start Mark, and hold the film tight with thump when advancing. Will extra carefull in the future though 🙂

Anyway: will do a bit of scanning come weekend, and hope to present one or two frames then.

Kind Regards

 

[Niels]

This issue is inherent in the system of dip and dunk development.
There is no way to develop a film without a weighting clamp at the end.
The last 2 cm of every roll belongs to the clamp.

Thx for this answer haempe! Is there any developer method that avoids this -and can use the 4-5mm empty space after the last frame, that I have? If it is practically possible to use this narrow space, I might "shop around" trying to find a lab that can do it - extra $ will be ok 🙂

If not possible, end of story I guess.

Kind Regards

 

[Araakii]

You probably loaded your film improperly. There should be more than enough room in the film trailer to allow the clamps.

edit: It looks like you said there was 5mm space at the end? That's definitely not right. All my rolls have at least 3cm space at the end.

 

[Niels]

You probably loaded your film improperly. There should be more than enough room in the film trailer to allow the clamps.

edit: It looks like you said there was 5mm space at the end? That's definitely not right. All my rolls have at least 3cm space at the end.

Thx Araakii.
3 cm is what I need! Can you tell me what spacing between frames you typically have? Will have to scrutinize my loading...

Kind Regards

 

[haempe]

Thx for this answer haempe! Is there any developer method that avoids this -and can use the 4-5mm empty space after the last frame, that I have? If it is practically possible to use this narrow space, I might "shop around" trying to find a lab that can do it - extra $ will be ok 🙂

If not possible, end of story I guess.

Kind Regards

I think there are developing machines for c41 which work not like dip n dunk, but I'm out of color film development for two decades or so, I don't know for 120 at the moment.
Developing in small tank with film winded on a spiral should work.

 

[drewbarb]

As others have said there really is no way to avoid having clamp marks somewhere on the film. But if the film is properly loaded in the camera and the lab is any good at all, it should be very easy to clamp film in the blank leader space at either end and not damage any frames. Of course accidents will happen; sometimes you'll get a miss-load, or the new kid at the lab will be sloppy- but these should be anomalies, not the norm. Most of your films should show clamp marks well outside the image area.

In my lab, which is all hand process in deep tanks, I trim the clamp marks from blank ends. When someone sends a roll in which has been miss-loaded and the very ends of the roll show image, I clamp as carefully as I can and leave them. I send a note to the photographer in these cases explaining what happened. Sometimes these miss-loads can indicate a camera or film back that needs service. Anyway, I hope you sort this out to your satisfaction.

 

[Araakii]

Thx Araakii.
3 cm is what I need! Can you tell me what spacing between frames you typically have? Will have to scrutinize my loading...

Kind Regards

Granted I only shoot 6x6, but 6x7 should yield even MORE room at the end because 6cm * 12 is greater than 7cm * 10.

The spacing between my frames is on average around 3mm. But sometimes it's 2mm and sometimes it's 4mm.

 

[kuzano]

Is your film tight when you close the door

Is your film tight when you close the door

Classic dilemma in 120/220 with most horizontal transport MF cameras is loading the film tight. Jamming midroll and frame spacing inconsistencies often come from closing the back door of the camera without having tension on the beginning of the roll as the door clicks into place. I've shot a lot of Fuji's and it cost me a few rolls due to jams, and running out of frame on the last frame before I actually read the manual for one of my Fuji Texas Rangefinders.

Yes, the manuals with Fujis speak to the issue of loose loads causing problems... well, in any event the manual does actually say to ply tension on the roll as the door is closed. It's all part of the "RTFM" problem most of us have with camera's and other mechanical devices in general.

Everything you've posted here takes me right to this issue. Certainly bad frame spacing can be a mechanical problem, but as a mechanical problem, it is usually consistently too much space, or too little space. Poorly loaded film OTOH leads to spacing inconsistencies all over the map.

It's a problem easily resolved if you apply three arms and hands to the loading process.

Once I developed a technique for holding the feed roll still, and applying pressure to the arming lever, and closing the door at the same time, my jams and spacing problems disappeared.

PS>.. also check the spring rollers in the camera, particularly on the feed roll to see that is sitting firmly against the feed roll right down to the last frame coming off the roll. I have often had to give that spring more curvature to press against the film as it comes off the roll.

 

[Niels]

So to sum up (please correct me if wrong)

1) Clamp marks are unavoidable when using pro labs
2) There should be lots of empty space for the clamps
3) Spacing between frames should/can be in the 3mm area.

As noted I have spacings mostly on 9mm, with a few between 7-11mm. The consistantly large spacings would indicate a mechanical problem (with arming lever)

Bad loading routines could explain spacing inconsistencies between frames (7-11mm), but not consistent large gaps - ie 9mm contra the desired 3mm.

Plan:
1) Working further on my loading routine
2) Have a closer look on the arming lever, trying to "downsize" the amount of film being moved by lever. Anyone have advice on this? 🙂

Anyway: really appreciate you comments guys. I am a lot wiser now than when I startet the thread! 🙂

Kind Regards