Dektol Dan
Well-known
Fred Picker?
Fred Picker?
I'm not familiar with that/him.
My old man was a Zone VI, f 64 guy, but he was very good with his hands and a very good craftsman, and he made many one off homespun contraptions. For his first enlarger we used at home he made the condenser from scratch (ground the lenses from a kit commonly found in photo magazines of the day in 1947) and the head was a 2 1/4 X 3 1/4 Speed Graphic with glass carriers. I don't know where he got the idea for his meter scale adaptation, but the scale is hand made.
I've been familiar with the Zone system for 40 years, I'll aways used it in large format shooting where exposure can be tricky when shooting relatively close.
At home the Westons and Ansel were God. I know what the zones look like and there aren't many digital cameras that can find adaptation with the zone system, they just aren't good enough in dark shadows and with their blown out highlights.
As already posted, there are simple scales available that you can use. The Zone system works, and understanding it is great training for the eye. It's critics simply don't know how it works, and, or, don't want to know. It is not a tool for street shooters, and sports photographers, but it was never intended as such.
Fred Picker?
I'm not familiar with that/him.
My old man was a Zone VI, f 64 guy, but he was very good with his hands and a very good craftsman, and he made many one off homespun contraptions. For his first enlarger we used at home he made the condenser from scratch (ground the lenses from a kit commonly found in photo magazines of the day in 1947) and the head was a 2 1/4 X 3 1/4 Speed Graphic with glass carriers. I don't know where he got the idea for his meter scale adaptation, but the scale is hand made.
I've been familiar with the Zone system for 40 years, I'll aways used it in large format shooting where exposure can be tricky when shooting relatively close.
At home the Westons and Ansel were God. I know what the zones look like and there aren't many digital cameras that can find adaptation with the zone system, they just aren't good enough in dark shadows and with their blown out highlights.
As already posted, there are simple scales available that you can use. The Zone system works, and understanding it is great training for the eye. It's critics simply don't know how it works, and, or, don't want to know. It is not a tool for street shooters, and sports photographers, but it was never intended as such.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Chris, thank you for the illuminating comments regarding the light meter in the F4 et. al. I have a D700 that has the same meter layout in the viewfinder and think I could make that work!
Just checking: if I spot meter for the darkest part that I want to show detail and set the camera so that the darkest spot will meter as -2, I would be placing the darkest part in in Zone III, right? IIRC that is the darkest zone that a DSLR can register nowadays, according to the internet.
Not sure whether this is a good approach though since I usually meter for the brightest part to meter +3, to avoid blown-out highlights. More slide film-style, I suppose...
Roger, if getting a spotmeter improves accuracy by a full stop, it's still worth considering I suppose. Although I might be perfectly able to do without when shooting under identical lighting conditions for all portraits...
Decisions, decisions! I'm thoroughly enjoying figuring all this stuff out, and planning my portrait series
Just checking: if I spot meter for the darkest part that I want to show detail and set the camera so that the darkest spot will meter as -2, I would be placing the darkest part in in Zone III, right? IIRC that is the darkest zone that a DSLR can register nowadays, according to the internet.
Not sure whether this is a good approach though since I usually meter for the brightest part to meter +3, to avoid blown-out highlights. More slide film-style, I suppose...
Roger, if getting a spotmeter improves accuracy by a full stop, it's still worth considering I suppose. Although I might be perfectly able to do without when shooting under identical lighting conditions for all portraits...
Decisions, decisions! I'm thoroughly enjoying figuring all this stuff out, and planning my portrait series
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
-2 is zone III. With black and white or color negative film, zone III is the darkest with full detail, but darker tones are possible, though you won't see full detail in them. Digital SLRs are more like slide film in that they can keep detail in very dark tones, but any over exposure blows out highlight tones.
If you're shooting negative film, forget the highlights. Negative film can hold detail in overexposed light tones, but any underexposure means no shadow detail. That's why the zone system is based on setting exposure to ensure detail in dark tones. The system was designed for negative film, not slide film or digital.
If you meter a black object you want detail in, you set the exposure to put that at zone III. Then, check a white object you want detail in. It should fall around zone VII. If it goes higher, you can leave it as is and use a lower-contrast printing paper, or you can develop shorter to reduce the contrast. If you're scanning, and have a good film scanner, you can leave it as is and adjust contrast in post-process.
If you're doing darkroom prints, and want to adjust developing time to make printing easier, my website has (N-1) times for a number of films and developers. Note that these require one stop more exposure since some film speed is also lost with the shorter developing time. I give EI numbers for the short times, so you can set your meter for it and not have to think about the compensation needed.
http://crawfordphotoschool.com/film/developing.php
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Thank you Chris, most appreciated! Bookmarked that link!
Dektol Dan
Well-known
Chris You Have It Nailed
Chris You Have It Nailed
To really use the Zone to it's fullest (that is widest range), we're talking black and white large format. You don't need a 5 degree meter, but think of how convenient it is to use! You're definitely right about color negatives.
I mentioned large format close shooting because I was referring to reciprocity, and when using the zone system it's easier to visualize/predict/bracket/over expose for the necessary corrections.
If one can learn to visualize the zones, and know where to meter, photos become much better.
The next step is to do the same thing in color, for each primary color. There is no meter for this that I know of, but one can learn to find the 'glow' where three subtractive colors make white. Here is where we leave linear absolutes and get into Pythagorean harmonics.
Chris You Have It Nailed
To really use the Zone to it's fullest (that is widest range), we're talking black and white large format. You don't need a 5 degree meter, but think of how convenient it is to use! You're definitely right about color negatives.
I mentioned large format close shooting because I was referring to reciprocity, and when using the zone system it's easier to visualize/predict/bracket/over expose for the necessary corrections.
If one can learn to visualize the zones, and know where to meter, photos become much better.
The next step is to do the same thing in color, for each primary color. There is no meter for this that I know of, but one can learn to find the 'glow' where three subtractive colors make white. Here is where we leave linear absolutes and get into Pythagorean harmonics.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Well, that was the point really. What does "accuracy" mean in this context? If it works without the spotmeter -- Chris's suggestion, indisputably correct -- then maybe "accuracy" is an illusion. For the most part, the Zone System consists of (a) generous exposure to get off the toe of the curve and (b) changing the slope of the curve, a simple time/gamma curve.
The Zone System is very good for getting negatives that will wet-print on a middling grade of paper (2 or 3). Once you have got past the jargon and the self-importance of Zonies, it is also excellent for understanding the nature of print contrast: as I have often said, the naming of Zones is a work of genius. But if you have VC paper or a scanner, the exposure/ development system is far more precise (or pseudo-precise) than necessarily makes sense. This is especially true in your situation, where you are not constrained by wildly varying subject brightness ranges. Instead of varying development, vary the subject illumination range (and thereby, if you key the exposure to skin highlights, effectively the subject brightness range) simply by moving the lights.
Cheers,
R.
charjohncarter
Veteran
If you skillfully scan and post process in any editing program. You can achieve the same results as Zone System. Highlight compress and shadow enhancement make anything more than incident metering moot. I still use my reflective meter for Zone III and shoot, or incident and shoot. Wet printing is trickier, but this method worked for me for years (with wet printing and different contrast papers).
In other words, Roger is right in saying that skillful metering (not necessarily Zone) will work. Besides with these new tubular grains and even Trix new films the ability to hold back or expand highlights with N-+ is difficult. I just use my normal EI for sunny situations (mostly sunny in California) and closer to manufacturer ISO on low contrast scenes. Then develop the roll normally (in my case for sun).
ronnies
Well-known
Fair point but exposing a while roll with the same developing time is critical and not necessarily very convenient for everyone.
Glad to enlighten you.
Ronnie
Paul Jenkin
Well-known
I don't profess to have any in-depth knowledge of the zone system, thoughI've read a fair bit on the subject. My method works for me and helps me with a hybrid post-processing routine as I shoot on film, have the film developed commercially and then I scan the negatives and adjust in Lightroom or Photoshop.
I do have a 1 degree spot meter - courtesy of a Gossen Starlite. However, my general routine is to take an incident reading from the subject with the "cone" pointing right back at the camera. I then compare the result with reflective a spot reading off a grey card. Most times, the readings are so similar as to make no difference. Occasionally, I'll get a reading that suggests stop or so either way and I make a call (or bracket the exposure and shoot a couple of frames).
When the film's developed and scanned, I use the histogram to stretch or compress the tone curve to achieve the look I want. If there's a few shots (or a whole roll) that were taken in the same place and under similar / identical light, I create a Lightroom Preset and apply it to all of the shots where I want consistent results.
Like I said, my system works for me and I'm usually pretty pleased with the end result and have negatives that capture a good range of tones without clipping the highlights or shadows and will allow me to vary the look. Not sure if you can call it "zone system" though.
I do have a 1 degree spot meter - courtesy of a Gossen Starlite. However, my general routine is to take an incident reading from the subject with the "cone" pointing right back at the camera. I then compare the result with reflective a spot reading off a grey card. Most times, the readings are so similar as to make no difference. Occasionally, I'll get a reading that suggests stop or so either way and I make a call (or bracket the exposure and shoot a couple of frames).
When the film's developed and scanned, I use the histogram to stretch or compress the tone curve to achieve the look I want. If there's a few shots (or a whole roll) that were taken in the same place and under similar / identical light, I create a Lightroom Preset and apply it to all of the shots where I want consistent results.
Like I said, my system works for me and I'm usually pretty pleased with the end result and have negatives that capture a good range of tones without clipping the highlights or shadows and will allow me to vary the look. Not sure if you can call it "zone system" though.
airfrogusmc
Veteran
To properly use the zone system you need to do the test to find out where the threshold of exposure is. A densitometer is the best way to see where the first measurable density is over film base + fog. You have to test each lens and camera. The test will help you determine your proper ASA/ISO and proper development time for the developer used. N=normal time and temp. You then need to find your expansion development times to increase highlights by one zone (N+1) two zones(N+2) etc. You then need to find your N-1, N-2 etc to pull back the the highlights by one zone or two.
Base your exposure on where you want your shadoes to fall. Zone II or Zone III. Then see where your highlights are falling and if you need to expand or contract depending on how the scene looks to you in your minds eye. A one degree spot meter is really the easiest tool to do this with.
I did the tests in college with a Deardorff. I still have all my notes and film curves somewhere.
Three great books on the subject are:
The Camera
The Negative
The Print
All by Ansel Adams
Also Zone VI Workshop by Fred Picker is a nice supplement to the Adams books.
When I was in college also had a zone system workshop with this guy. An intense 3 days all large format after all the tests.
http://www.michaeljohnsonphotography.com/
Really was helped understanding how it all works in a practical way by one of Jack Deardorffs (Deardorff Camera's) tech reps.
You can't master the zone system without doing the tests. You have to have a solid base to work from. You need to establish your exposure and base it on the shadow and how much detail you need and you then control highlights through processing times of your negatives).
Base your exposure on where you want your shadoes to fall. Zone II or Zone III. Then see where your highlights are falling and if you need to expand or contract depending on how the scene looks to you in your minds eye. A one degree spot meter is really the easiest tool to do this with.
I did the tests in college with a Deardorff. I still have all my notes and film curves somewhere.
Three great books on the subject are:
The Camera
The Negative
The Print
All by Ansel Adams
Also Zone VI Workshop by Fred Picker is a nice supplement to the Adams books.
When I was in college also had a zone system workshop with this guy. An intense 3 days all large format after all the tests.
http://www.michaeljohnsonphotography.com/
Really was helped understanding how it all works in a practical way by one of Jack Deardorffs (Deardorff Camera's) tech reps.
You can't master the zone system without doing the tests. You have to have a solid base to work from. You need to establish your exposure and base it on the shadow and how much detail you need and you then control highlights through processing times of your negatives).