Bill Pierce
Well-known
The other day, a friend reminded me of a metering technique I wrote about that he still uses. Take a TTL reading and an incident reading. If they are much different, use an exposure halfway between them.
It was a technique some of us used when we started shooting the news in color, limited latitude color slide film. It was good technique, especially for mid distance shots of people, something must account for an awful lot of news shots. Not much use with digital where you can just check a histogram. But still a useful technique for film.
Wondered if anybody else had any weird metering techniques that go a little beyond setting automatic TTL to P and accepting what the camera gives you?
It was a technique some of us used when we started shooting the news in color, limited latitude color slide film. It was good technique, especially for mid distance shots of people, something must account for an awful lot of news shots. Not much use with digital where you can just check a histogram. But still a useful technique for film.
Wondered if anybody else had any weird metering techniques that go a little beyond setting automatic TTL to P and accepting what the camera gives you?
shimokita
白黒
mostly just experience with the film and camera/lens combination. TTL metering plus adjustment base on... nothing new here...
If I use the spot meter, then I meter the darkest area and adjust xx f-stops. I use to spot the high and low and go for the mid point, but just using the dark areas (and experience) seems to be quick and best for my approach.
Don't do the TTL, fix exposure and re-frame. Too much effort (hahaha) considering the added value...
The above with b&w film...
Casey
If I use the spot meter, then I meter the darkest area and adjust xx f-stops. I use to spot the high and low and go for the mid point, but just using the dark areas (and experience) seems to be quick and best for my approach.
Don't do the TTL, fix exposure and re-frame. Too much effort (hahaha) considering the added value...
The above with b&w film...
Casey
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
My worst problem is over thinking it with way too many uses of the meter and not trusting my instinct!
Harry Lime
Practitioner
- Many interiors (public spaces, museums etc) are light for exposure at f2.8 @ 1/30th or 1/60th with 400asa film.
Chris101
summicronia
If I'm shooting outdoors in the sun, I meter the ground in a shadow, then I meter the sky and set the camera in between them. If I want a bright picture, I set it to 1/3rd from the bottom, or if I want a dark print, then I set it 2/3rds from the bottom. I guess that would be applying the rule of thirds to exposure.
raytoei@gmail.com
Veteran
As Harry said about interior, i use where possible f2 and 1/30 for iso 400 film. I also learnt that outdoors, and the subject is indoors or in a shade, to open up 3 stops.
With a small compact sekonic l-208, i find the incident and reflective meter too inaccurate, so i use Bill's and also Roger's suggestion of splitting the difference.
cheers!
raytoei
With a small compact sekonic l-208, i find the incident and reflective meter too inaccurate, so i use Bill's and also Roger's suggestion of splitting the difference.
cheers!
raytoei
mrmeadows
Established
My main metering technique is based on incident light readings, but it is much faster than fiddling around with the computer dial incorporated into every meter. It also involves a story about metering technology that may be of some interest in its own right.
When uncertain of the light level, I usually use a variant of incident light metering that I developed when I was a working photojournalist 35 years ago. I used a Gossen Luna Pro meter. When metering, its needle pointed to a number which one then entered onto the usual dial computer which then showed the f-stop/speed pairs associated with the ISO and the measured number. The needle pointed to 20 for sunny, 17 for shade, and 12 or so for the standard indoor levels that Harry has already mentioned. Since I regarded the dial as too slow, I quit using it and learned to do my own mental calculations based on the Luna Pro measurements and on Sunny-16. For examples: Gossen 20 = f/16 at 1/ISO; Gossen 17 = f/5.6 at 1/ISO; Gossen 12 = f/2.8 at (1/60 for ISO 400). etc. Many times I could simply eyeball the light level to get the Gossen number with sufficient accuracy and proceed from there. When uncertain, I would measure with the Luna Pro, mentally retrieve a pair of settings and then make any fine adjustments that each instance required. I found, with practice, that this method was very fast and worked for both BW and color
Later I took up other work, and for some 30 years I didn't make many photos. When I started photographing regularly again a few years ago, I pulled out my Luna Pro and tried to use it. Surprisingly, its readings didn't agree with the light meter I still carried in my head or with the ones from the reflected light meters in my cameras. I changed batteries and recalibrated and tried everything I could think of, to no avail.
Eventually I figured out that I was right and the Luna Pro really was wrong, and that the reason involved the batteries. Turns out that the Luna Pro was designed before the advent of current semiconductor electronics. Instead of using a semiconductor voltage reference as the base of its measurements the way current meters do, the Luna Pro was designed to use mercury batteries. These batteries produce an extremely stable voltage that facilitates accurate measurements, whereas alkaline and other batteries do not. Meters using other batteries all depend for their accuracy on the addition of a voltage reference component to the electrical circuit. Today, unlike years ago, mercury is (rightly) regarded as a toxic substance to be avoided in consumer products. So the batteries that the Luna Pro requires are no longer readily available, and it doesn't work reliably with the ones that are.
I replaced the Luna Pro with a new Gossen Digisix meter. But my metering technique didn't work simply, because the new meter does not read out in the original Luna Pro scale. Instead, it reports in EV. But if I set the meter at ISO = 3200, then the EV measuremements become numerically equal to the old Luna Pro values that I remember. In this way the Digisix numbers are still measurements of light level alone, and I can use my familiar technique that is etched into my brain.
--- Mike
When uncertain of the light level, I usually use a variant of incident light metering that I developed when I was a working photojournalist 35 years ago. I used a Gossen Luna Pro meter. When metering, its needle pointed to a number which one then entered onto the usual dial computer which then showed the f-stop/speed pairs associated with the ISO and the measured number. The needle pointed to 20 for sunny, 17 for shade, and 12 or so for the standard indoor levels that Harry has already mentioned. Since I regarded the dial as too slow, I quit using it and learned to do my own mental calculations based on the Luna Pro measurements and on Sunny-16. For examples: Gossen 20 = f/16 at 1/ISO; Gossen 17 = f/5.6 at 1/ISO; Gossen 12 = f/2.8 at (1/60 for ISO 400). etc. Many times I could simply eyeball the light level to get the Gossen number with sufficient accuracy and proceed from there. When uncertain, I would measure with the Luna Pro, mentally retrieve a pair of settings and then make any fine adjustments that each instance required. I found, with practice, that this method was very fast and worked for both BW and color
Later I took up other work, and for some 30 years I didn't make many photos. When I started photographing regularly again a few years ago, I pulled out my Luna Pro and tried to use it. Surprisingly, its readings didn't agree with the light meter I still carried in my head or with the ones from the reflected light meters in my cameras. I changed batteries and recalibrated and tried everything I could think of, to no avail.
Eventually I figured out that I was right and the Luna Pro really was wrong, and that the reason involved the batteries. Turns out that the Luna Pro was designed before the advent of current semiconductor electronics. Instead of using a semiconductor voltage reference as the base of its measurements the way current meters do, the Luna Pro was designed to use mercury batteries. These batteries produce an extremely stable voltage that facilitates accurate measurements, whereas alkaline and other batteries do not. Meters using other batteries all depend for their accuracy on the addition of a voltage reference component to the electrical circuit. Today, unlike years ago, mercury is (rightly) regarded as a toxic substance to be avoided in consumer products. So the batteries that the Luna Pro requires are no longer readily available, and it doesn't work reliably with the ones that are.
I replaced the Luna Pro with a new Gossen Digisix meter. But my metering technique didn't work simply, because the new meter does not read out in the original Luna Pro scale. Instead, it reports in EV. But if I set the meter at ISO = 3200, then the EV measuremements become numerically equal to the old Luna Pro values that I remember. In this way the Digisix numbers are still measurements of light level alone, and I can use my familiar technique that is etched into my brain.
--- Mike
MartinP
Veteran
Aha, Gossen noticed this too. I'm still using my old Gossen, after servicing and re-calibration last year , powered with the cheap and effective silver-oxide battery-adapter which Gossen makes for their mercury-cell meters.
My useful(?) addition to the thread is naturally not my own idea, and is to use your reflected-light camera meter to get a good incident reading by measuring off your palm. Open up a stop (or so, check how much you need first at home) and then you will find that this is very consistent - much more so than measuring off the faces or other skin tones of different people, at different times of the year, with different tans etc.
Obviously, this handy (pun intended) grey-card substitute has the same limitations as any incident method, in that the light on your hand needs to be comparable to the light on your subject.
v_roma
Well-known
Interesting stuff. Keep it coming!
Richard G
Veteran
There's a lot of logic in Bill Pierce's proposal, but I am still uncertain of it for slide film where the reduction for a dark main subject might lead to overexposure elsewhere in the image. But I will often just open 1/2 a stop for slides when using an incident reading and a dark subject. I don't know whether that would be the same result as Bill's method. I like Harry's advice on the interior but such things always scare me - they seem too arbitrary. The latitude of Tri-X is probably what makes it work. I think Jane Bown gave both the f stop and shutter speed when asked how she made her portraits, but that was likely tongue in cheek. Metering off the back of her hand sounds authentic though.
Tipton
Tipton Photo
Funny you say that. I was going through photos from a few years ago when I was using an M3, with a 35 no less, and no meter at all. and the exposures were spot on each frame. I went through probably 5 rolls looking at them. It made me feel realllly lazy in my current state, using a meter much too much.
DNG
Film Friendly
With my M5, I try to include highlight and darker mid-tones in the semi-spot. It seems to work out all the 95% time. I only shoot BW in the M5.
With my Panasonic G1, I use the multi-area, which seems to work well, even with some tough lighting, or I use the spot meter mode...if it's too contrasty.
I use Aperture Priority with m4/3 99% of the time. even with adapted lenses.
Bill, that duel metering technique sounds interesting...
I used to have a Minolta IIIF in the 80's, and I did use the incident light meter dome at times. But, TTL metering was faster. Although, with the way different SLRs metered, it seemed like I was learning how to meter with a new camera that a so called "Perfect" metering system.
With my Panasonic G1, I use the multi-area, which seems to work well, even with some tough lighting, or I use the spot meter mode...if it's too contrasty.
I use Aperture Priority with m4/3 99% of the time. even with adapted lenses.
Bill, that duel metering technique sounds interesting...
I used to have a Minolta IIIF in the 80's, and I did use the incident light meter dome at times. But, TTL metering was faster. Although, with the way different SLRs metered, it seemed like I was learning how to meter with a new camera that a so called "Perfect" metering system.
MCTuomey
Veteran
+1 At least until you're near a bright window or dark corner, anyway. But generally it is a welcome consistency, isn't it?
GSNfan
Well-known
I don't have any metering technique. For b&w I use an incident meter and guess the compensation... I also intentionally keep it imprecise so the image does not look too clean.
With digital i use matrix metering and shoot raw.
With digital i use matrix metering and shoot raw.
Harry Lime
Practitioner
I believe this light level is a standard with lighting designers.
I travel a lot and almost anywhere in North America or Western Europe you will get this reading in a museum or similar public building (sans big windows).
Harry Lime
Practitioner
A few more:
There is this very elaborate system...
http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm
Classic Sunny 16
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunny_16
There was another article I remember reading a long time ago that explained how you could deduct an exposure for something by extrapolating from a single reading. But alas I can't find it anymore.
There is this very elaborate system...
http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm
Classic Sunny 16
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunny_16
There was another article I remember reading a long time ago that explained how you could deduct an exposure for something by extrapolating from a single reading. But alas I can't find it anymore.
Bill Pierce
Well-known
The other day said:
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
Great info!
For B&W and color negative things are easier... For chromes on direct, bright, frontal sunlight I close half stop from box speed... With diagonal sun, box speed... With lateral sun I open up half stop... If I want open skins like in fashion, I open up half stop... If I have no skins and want saturated colors, I close half a stop... And when light is soft I take special care of white and too light surfaces like facades: they can be burnt very easily... For example with Astia100 on overcast days, if I have important whites on my scene, I meter at 100 but shoot closing half a stop. This doesn't happen on direct sun...
I think every photographer's meters and lenses are relevant here, so it's not easy to establish absolute values...
Cheers,
Juan
Hilm3
Established
My don't-over-think-it method is: for slides - lock exposure on a patch of blue sky; for negatives - lock exposure on the ground by the subject eliminating most of the sky.
For me, it works often enough.
I find Fred Parker's tables very useful. There is a cheat sheet in my wallet. They are more trustworthy than my (technique with my) Gossen Luna Pro, incident or reflective.
For me, it works often enough.
I find Fred Parker's tables very useful. There is a cheat sheet in my wallet. They are more trustworthy than my (technique with my) Gossen Luna Pro, incident or reflective.
charjohncarter
Veteran
I do your method, reflective and incident with the same meter. Some times I average, other times I use one or the other if I can think of a reason to. Outside I mostly use Chris101's method.