Metering with (non SLR) MF cameras

[Matus]

OK guys. Since about a year and a half I use Mamiya 6 and have quite a few rolls exposed with it. I bought it (and sold my Rolleiflex T for it) to get 3 lenses instead of one, in-camera metering and AE and size that is more compact than Mamiya 7. I also considered the Bronica RF645 at the time, but finally went with the Mamiya 6.

After the time I have spent with the camera I do enjoy the lenses and the relatively compact size with the lens mount folded, but I completely HATE the light meter. It meters over area larger than the FOV of the 50mm lens. And in particular is sensitive to the light from above. I find it next to impossible to actually meter a "classical" landscape shot where the sky is usually 1 - 2 stops brighter than the rest of the image. If one does not compensate for it in some way overexposure of more than 1 stop is easy to get. I did try different techniques and one may indeed get usable results with 75 and 50 lens with negative films, but to get usable metering with 150 lens is next to impossible as only tiny area of the measured one is used.

This went so far that I used nearly exclusively my Digisix light meter and manual exposure. This works. but often slows me down more than necessary and one sometimes need spot (reflected) metering, not just incident. Should I stay with hand-held meter I actually consider getting back to TLR or coupling a TLR with say Fuji GSW690 or just get a GW690 or such.

So I actually started to think of alternatives - and those with some kind of light meter are only few: Bronica RF645, Mamiya 7 and Bessa III. The last one indeed offers only 1 lens, but I would consider that too.

My questions to you are
- what is your experience with metering with the above cameras?
- what is your technique?

 

[dct]

I see the problem. Interesting, because I'm also thinking about a 120 RF and the Mamiya 6 is still one of my choices...
Did you ever read and try the tricks mentionend by Ken Rockwell? I will track this thread because I'm interested in more opinions on this camera.

 

[Giant Ginkgo]

I usually try to keep an eye on what's going on with the meter on my Mamiya 6MF when the sky is really bright, and will either shield it some (like Mr. Rockwell does), or drop the view down a bit to see how the reading varies across the landscape. I'll then manually set the exposure based off of what I feel is right, and generally don't have much of a problem with it. Since I'm usually not shooting moving subjects, it isn't really an issue for me speed wise.

On the other hand, I don't have much of a problem shooting with my meterless Zorki 6 without any meter readings most of the time, and just guessing the aperture and shutter speeds based off my intuition...

 

[farlymac]

Matus, if you practice using the Sunny-16 method of exposure calculation, it would help you in detemining the correct exposures for a photo, as it gets you to thinking how the various parts of the scene are lit, and then you start going "Ah, yes. It's a couple stops darker over here than over there, so I'll change what the meter is reading to compensate." I've been using a lot of non-metered cameras lately, and sometimes I don't even pull the meter out of the bag, or even bring one with me. Split neutral-density filters can also help when the sky is all blown out, and there is a lot of shadow in the foreground.

PF

 

[sleepyhead]

I just point the camera at the ground, pavement, or other non-sky part of the scene, and use that meter reading, and re-compose. and have no problem. Consider using AEL it makes this easy.
I love the mamiya 6.

 

[Matus]

Thank you (and sorry for a late reply from my side). I have used most of the tricks mentioned (and have read the article from Ken long before I even got the M6) - shading the top part or pointing the camera down - but I often do not find this approach to be good enough with slide film. So I mostly use my incident meter.

So - if I would go to my original question - what is your experience and approach to meter with the following cameras:
- Bronica RF645
- Mamiya 7
- Bessa 667 III (Fujifilm GF670)

 

[brian steinberger]

I just point the camera at the ground, pavement, or other non-sky part of the scene, and use that meter reading, and re-compose. and have no problem. Consider using AEL it makes this easy.
I love the mamiya 6.

+1

I do this alot too if I know the sky will influence the light meter. More than not though I use my pentax digital spot meter when using my 6. The meter in the Mamiya 6 is really the weak point of the camera. But everything else more than makes up for it. I also have a Broncia RF645 and the metering in that camera is amazing! Especially for a RF which is not metering TTL it's extremely accurate. If you're looking for a RF with a reliable in camera meter the RF645 is the camera to get.

 

[Gordon Moat]

On the Bronica RF645 the metering is great until you are standing in sun and your scene is shaded, but when you know that the exposure compensation dial is quick and easy to use. The metering does compensate well for the different lenses, and the metering area changes with the lens. So while it is rarely possible to trick the meter, the usual thing to expect is that it is accurate. I shoot mostly transparency film in my RF645.

I only have experience with the Mamiya 7 and 7 II through rental. It seemed to me that the exposure was nearly as accurate as the RF645, and that it had the same sun to shade issue needing to be aware of on rare shots. I only tried two of the lenses, though the results went as expected.

Overall I felt the Bronica seemed better balanced and sturdier in my hand, I liked the 16 shots on 120 roll film, and I didn't mind fewer lenses in the line-up. I currently have the wide and normal lenses and use them somewhat equally.

 

[Matus]

Gordon and Brian - thanks. I agree that apart from the metering Mamiya 6 is a great camera. But the necessity to use external meter (or shade the viewfinder - which is hard to apply with the 150 lens with reasonable accuracy) has tendency to slow me down more than I like sometimes.

 

[brian steinberger]

Gordon and Brian - thanks. I agree that apart from the metering Mamiya 6 is a great camera. But the necessity to use external meter (or shade the viewfinder - which is hard to apply with the 150 lens with reasonable accuracy) has tendency to slow me down more than I like sometimes.

I certainly understand this. I would try pointing the meter at the foreground and holding the AE as mentioned before. This will do fine enough with negative film. Also I wanted to add that because of the 6's meter I normally set the ISO one stop slower than normal. So if I'm shooting Tri-x at 400 I'll set the ISO on the Mamiya at 200. This gives me some room for error as well. And of course with negative film over-exposure if your friend.

I find the Mamiya 6 the perfect camera on and off the tripod. I try to use it on the tripod as much as possible, both for sharpness and leveling, but in the case I cannot use a tripod or need to work quickly I can take it off the tripod and trust the in camera metering just enough to get the shot. And of course it's fantastic hand held. The best of both worlds!

 

[Matus]

Brian I guess you are right. Mamiya 6 is rather close to a perfect 'carry-on' medium format camera. I just can not stop thinking that I could swap it for a Bronica RF645 with 45 and 65 lenses + Rolleiflex T ... and then there are the Contax 645 and GW690 that keep bugging me for some reason 🙂

I guess I need to get out a shoot some more and see. Nothing to hurry (it too me several years to dream about Mamiya 6 until I actually bought one) I am not going to let it go too easily.

 

[SteveM]

For most of my B&W shooting I use a Leica M4-P with handheld meter to check lighting occasionally. The exposure latitude compensates for judgement errors okay, but I never use it for slides. That domain is reserved for my Bronica RF645. I use it a lot for travel, and since shooting speed is often important I also use it mostly on Program mode (it has aperture priority too). Apart from known tricky backlighting situations it has never let me down; its's so reliable I rarely even think about exposure compensation, regardless of which lens is on. Like your Mamiya 6 it is also very compact, making it great to travel with. I've got all three lenses but use the 100mm the least. For travel I always take the 45mm and standard 65mm - the 45mm is stunning. The 100mm can be found occasionally and often sits unsold despite lower cost (at least these days) than Mamiya 6 or 7 lenses.

Like you, I've often thought a Fuji 6x9 would be nice but they look really huge. For my needs, the larger neg would not really give me more than the Bronica does as I don't do huge enlargements. Besides, my Ercona 6x9 folder gives surprisingly sharp negs in a compact kit.

Overall I'm very happy with the Bronica. My only caution would be to comment on the winder robustness. Mine developed a slight rough spot that concerned me enough that I sent it to Tamron last year to be fixed, given that their support was about to expire. Everything worked, but I liked the camera enough that I didn't want to have any concerns for the future. Because of this I've sometimes thought of changing to a Mamiya 7II but body and standard lens goes for at least twice what you can get a Bronica for. On balance I'm sticking with the Bronica.

Regards,

Steve

 

[Matus]

Thank you Steve - the RF645 really is a nice camera and surprisingly cheap (relative to Mamiya 6 or 7). I share your thought on the GW690. If I were to go for a long trip (like I did some time ago in NZ) I would be tempted by the larger negative the 6x9 can offer.

The ease of use of the RF645 really makes me think about it. Actually the 45 and 65 lenses for the RF645 are very close (FOV wise, definitely not weight 😛) to GSW690 and GW 690 respectively.

 

[uhligfd]

But metering is so simple and easy: for landscapes I indirect meter the sky right above and then reflective of the scene. Usually I take an average upon a second of thought about zones.

As landscapes do not ever change from one shot to another half an hour later ..., once I know what gives that day, I am done.

And if that is too tedious for you, I am afraid you need more practice, practice, practice. On 120 film, I usually rate the film 1/2 stop slower, this gives me more latitude in printing. And finally, just trust your indirect (domed) Digisix the most and yourself. But I have done this for 50+ years, so you might have to learn and wait a while to get perfect ... Good success!

 

[brian steinberger]

Thank you Steve - the RF645 really is a nice camera and surprisingly cheap (relative to Mamiya 6 or 7). I share your thought on the GW690. If I were to go for a long trip (like I did some time ago in NZ) I would be tempted by the larger negative the 6x9 can offer.

The ease of use of the RF645 really makes me think about it. Actually the 45 and 65 lenses for the RF645 are very close (FOV wise, definitely not weight 😛) to GSW690 and GW 690 respectively.

I agree with Steve's comment about the winder as well. It is the weak point of the Bronica RF645. I've had mine for 4 years now and it is an earlier model. The winder is getting floppier over time. I had it adjusted by Tamron 2 years ago and I think it may be time again. The vertical alignment of the patch also goes off over time. This time I will send it to KEH. My frame counter also does not reset to S after a roll is finished and the back opened. I have to let the winder snap a few times until S shows up in the window. Tamron couldn't figure out what was wrong, maybe KEH will be able to fix this for me.

The Mamiya 6 is a much more robust camera than the RF645, so don't sell your 6! It's a great camera! With all 3 lenses it's a much more complete kit than the Bronica. The 150 for the Mamiya is longer and sharper than the Bronica's teles. I find the RF645 compliments the 6 perfectly if you can own both. I use the RF645 for handheld and hiking, it works perfectly for this. My bottom line when reviewing these two cameras which I've done many times is:

Bronica RF645:

Pros: Lightweight, perfect ergonomics, great meter

Cons: Winder is flimsy, limited lens selection, 45mm needs an external viewfinder, focusing patch goes off alignment easily

Mamiya 6

Pros: Sharpest lenses in MF, rather small, collapsible lens mount, quiet, robust, 50mm frame lines in camera, focusing patch is always crisp, easier to focus than RF645, but not by much.

Cons: meter sucks, not as ergonomic as RF645, but still good!