MF SLR vs RF for discreetness

[cambolt]

Yes, I know this is a rangefinder forum.
Basically, the reason I got into rangefinder photography is that I essentially convinced myself that a rangefinder would be more discreet for styles like street photography, over an old manual focus SLR. I bought a yashica GSN, but haven't really liked the feel so far. While my heart craves a leica (which I can't afford), my mind tells me that I wouldn't be worse off with my pentax spotmatic and lenses. In your mind, how would a rangefinder be any better for discreet photography than a small MF SLR? My practical side says that my pentax is just as small (lens off, it fits in my pocket), and not much louder than a leica IIIc.

 

[mugent]

An OM4ti is probably no bigger than an M6, and only a tiny bit louder, it's a lot cheaper, and the lens are even cheaper, but that's not really the point, people use rangefinders for the other qualities too, like better low light focusing and the red dot that comes on many of them.

MT

 

[cambolt]

To be honest, I'm finding both my Pentax and my minolta x700 easier to focus in low light than my Yashica GSN and my father's leica iiic (which he won't let me have 🙁 )

 

[Frontman]

Street shooting relies heavily on technique. Most street photographs are shot at small apertures, so there is good depth of field, and critical focusing is not necessary. I have Yahicas and Leicas, and, to tell the truth, a Yashica Electro is easier to use due to it's automatic shutter, and as the Electros have great lenses, they give up little in image quality.

To be ood a street type photography, you need to be able to calculate distances and frame shots without looking through the viewfinder. It is easy enough to learn how much will fit into the frame at a given distance. If you want shots of people from head to toe, point your camera at someone who will fit that way in the frame, and focus. Note how far away they are from where you are standing, and look at the distance scale on the lens. Also look at the aperture conversion, if you are shooting at f/16 you will have a lot of leeway as to distance, so refocusing will probably not be necessary. Now, whenever someone/something comes into the "kill zone", simply frame quickly through the viewfinder and shoot.

One of the advantages to using rangefinders is their low noise. I also like Olympus OM SLR cameras, my OM3 with a 50/1.8 lens is roughly the same size as my Leica M4 with it's 50/1.4 Summilux, but the M4 works nearly silently, whereas the OM3 has the typical SLR shutter sound (though OM cameras are quieter than other SLRs).

Your GSN is a great camera, and will take excellent pictures once you get familiar with it. It is no slower to use than an SLR, it has a great lens, a quiet shutter, and a very good built-in meter. Don't fixate on gear, it's much more fun to "run what ya brung".

 

[mph]

A micro 4/3rd camera or a serious compact could be consider as a street photography tool . Or something like the Fuji X100,or the Sigma DP-series...

 

[dyao]

The big advantage of a RF over a SLR for street shooting is that people are accustomed to equating SLRs with 'serious photographer' - even if shutter sounds are similar, people are more likely to notice a MF SLR.

 

[Keith]

I don't think the electro is a particularly shining example of what the attributes of a rangefinder are. It's on the large side and the ergonomics are pretty average IMO.

An OM-1 with a good focusing screen and a fast lens is not far off the best rangefinder out there ... a little louder shutter wise but certainly small and discrete.

 

[ZeissFan]

One of the little 1970s fixed-lens rangefinders also can be street shooters. Or perhaps the Rollei 35. The Minolta XD-11 has a nicely damped shutter and a lot of lenses in a diminutive package.

 

[gavinlg]

I've found the opposite of most people for street photography 'discreetness' - the smaller and quieter the camera, the more you try to blend in, the more people find you suspicious or notice you, and keep their attention on you. When I go out with a canon 1n or a 5d w/battery grip, or my massive pentax 67 and make no effort to be overly discreet, no one pays attention to me.

My theory is that if you make yourself known and do what you want with a camera that looks serious, people see you, register you as a photographer who's obviously doing something important, and then mentally move on. When visibly trying to not be noticed, people make note of it and keep an eye on you.

More to the point of the question - I wouldn't be using a yashica gsn for street photography. It's not manual, it's focussing patch is poor and its generally a slow and clumsy camera. I'd recommend your mf slr with a 28mm or 35mm lens, and don't over-think quite shutters and 'discreetness' and all that.

 

[menos]

It's not about a difference in size and noise.

For me the two main advantages of a RF (of any brand) is:

A viewfinder, not placed in the middle, to conflict with your right hand and hide your face behind the camera.

A completely different manual focussing - for me, a lot quicker and much more precise, than with a SLR on a ground glass, if speed matters.

Exposure controls are the same.
There are great SLRs, as small as many RFs.
The pictures from both are indistinguishable.

Try both and pick your pick. For me, it was a revelation, to find out about my preference of rangefinders.
I won't give up on SLRs though, as both systems ideally live together.

 

[_larky]

I think some people worry about being discreet too much, trying to learn Ninja Stealth tactics in an effort to be the invisible man.

However, I don't think most great street shooters try this, we've all seen the videos, some of them pretty much be as in your face as they can, and get great shots. I used to try to blend in, it made me look like a weirdo. I now just act like a tourist and nobody notices or bothers me. The most zen street moment I ever had was shooting a massive medium format beast which was louder than the drill they wer using to plough the Moon.

 

[Turtle]

Its not just about quietness, but about handling, the VF (everything is in focus and you can see around the frames and its bright), small size (yes a OM4 is quite a bit bigger than a M with a small lens on, like th CV 35 pancake or V1-4 cron. This does not mean you have to use a RF or that it will be better for you. All I am saying is that people use RFs for many reasons other than quietness.

If a RF is the tool for you, what about an Olympus 35 SP or something like that? Would a clean M2/3/4 be in your budget?

 

[ChrisN]

These days, if you want to be discreet, use an iPhone.

Gavin and Larky have the right idea. Everybody is so paranoid about people acting suspiciously that any attempt at "discreet" photography will set alarms ringing, sometines literally. Use your SLR, and act like you own the place, and chances are you'll get your shots.

 

[cambolt]

Some interesting replies here.
I'm not too bothered about noise, since I don't usually like to shove my camera in people's faces, it just makes me uncomfortable. I'm just wondering why people rave about RFs so much if you can buy a 20 year old SLR for 1/10th of the price and still be as discreet. As for my GSN, I have found that it is more "clunky" than any of my SLRs. My light meter is probably faulty, seems to go crazy in low light. I think the best thing for me to do at this point is buy a light meter for my spotmatic, then save up until I can afford a leica 😉

 

[ChrisN]

Good questions!

I think part of the ethos of rangefinders is the roots and associations with the likes of Cartier-Bresson, Capa, Winogrand, etc; the great photographers of the past. Another part is the fact that they are very capable cameras, often with superb lenses. The simplicity of operation of the meterless cameras in particular drives the photographer to develop skills in pre-focusing and keeping the exposure set for the prevailing conditions; skills that are uniquely suited to capturing street photographs. Many photographers will work just as well with an older SLR. The Spotmatics are a good example and can be used in the same fashion that you would use a Leica; learn to pre-set your exposure settings for the light, and fix a zip-tie to your focusing ring so you have an index mark to set the focus distance by feel. Work with whatever you feel most comfortable with, and can most easily work quickly and quietly with.

 

[ray*j*gun]

Zone focus with a small folder like a Welta Weltax ..... big neg, very small and very very quite.

 

[Frontman]

Some interesting replies here.
I'm not too bothered about noise, since I don't usually like to shove my camera in people's faces, it just makes me uncomfortable. I'm just wondering why people rave about RFs so much if you can buy a 20 year old SLR for 1/10th of the price and still be as discreet. As for my GSN, I have found that it is more "clunky" than any of my SLRs. My light meter is probably faulty, seems to go crazy in low light. I think the best thing for me to do at this point is buy a light meter for my spotmatic, then save up until I can afford a leica 😉

There is really no way to tell what the meter is doing in low light unless you shoot some film and check the results. A GSN will usually take outstanding photos in low light. Don't worry too much about the meter lights in dark conditions, unless it's totally black outside, the shutter will stay open as long as it needs to. On the other hand, the maximum speed of the shutter is only 1/500, so it is easy to over expose shots if you aren't careful.

I have several Leicas (actually, I have hundreds of cameras), and I can pretty much shoot whatever I wish to, and though the Yashica Electros are clunky, they are still excellent picture takers. I carry an Electro in my bag with my M4, and I use it regularly. It takes pictures indoors and other low light situations quickly and without guesswork. I save my SLR cameras for closeup or telephoto work, which are the two main areas where rangefinders truly have shortcomings.

 

[atlcruiser]

My OM2 and my M6 are both about the exact same size. I have fast lenses for both but a bit faster on the M6. I have used both for street shooting but come back to the M6.

For me the focus is much easier/faster on the M6....might not be like that for eveyone.

The biggest advantage for me is that the M6 can be handheld down to 1/15th or so and 1/30th on a reliable basis. I cant do that with the OM2...no way in hell 🙂


My big ass fuji GL690 is a RF but in no way is it small 🙂

 

[Keith]

I think for actual speed of focusing a rangefinder has the edge and I tend to hunt less for focus with one ... particularly in poor light. If your in a situation where the longer the camera is up to your eye the more likely you are to draw attention to yourself it can be quite an advantage.

 

[Paolo Bonello]

I think an RF the size of a Yashica CC or maybe the Minolta 7sII is very discreet and put a wrist strap on and be smartly dressed and you don't get those strange looks like you're some sort of perve or suspicious character. Obviously there are better RF's out there but the small size of the CC and 7sII is really quite discrete.

I have SLR's and although I love using them the mirror slap, plus the bulk give it away as a more serious and obvious camera. More people will know your wearing this camera but that can be a good thing in a touristy area.

Having said that, I don't consider camera 'discreetness' as a prime consideration before chosing one for the day. Many other factors weigh in before that. I agree with others here that being discrete or rather not drawing attention to yourself whilst taking photos goes hand in hand with how you project yourself and how natural or comfortable you feel whilst taking the photo. Occasionally I feel the need for a silent shutter but thats pretty rare and solved with one of my Yashicas if I happen to be carrying one or I just don't trip the shutter.

If your camera isn't discrete you can always practice discretion.