'Mint'

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Martin Horne

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Searching for a decent IIIf and getting a bit frustrated with the use of the expresssion 'Mint' in seller descriptions especially when I'm discovering "mint apart from a few scratches" or "mint apart from one ding on the top plate" at the end of a prolonged google!

I appreciate that it's subjective but surely it's either mint or it isnt - or are my expectations unrealistically high?

Also interested in thoughts about expectations of a mint 1940/50s camera versus for instance a mint M8...
 
Mint is defined as untouched and new in original packaging - I don't remember ever having seen a undoubtedly mint screw mount Leica on ebay. There obviously are a few mint M's, as dealers offer both new and new old stock ones, but NOS screw mount Leicas have long been absorbed by the collectors market and get traded directly among serious collectors, or are sold on more reputable channels by well-known high-profile dealers and auctioneers.

"Mint" on ebay is generally a lie, and mostly used by the more dishonest or stupid sellers - usually it is a flag for something much worse than "excellent" or "very good" from honest sellers. Use it as a warning rather than as a predicate - you can't expect anything better than "outer finish not obviously wasted".

In any case, if you are looking for user cameras, mint is something you will want to avoid. Even among serious collectors, mint does not mean that it works - on the contrary, mint implies "original state", which excludes service and maintenance. Any component that fails over the course of time through disuse is almost bound to have failed in a fifty year old genuinely mint item. And once you have a mint item serviced back to usability, it will have lost its mint status and most of its market value.
 
I buy from KEH for this reason. They have a strict grading policy that is meaningful. 90% of the time, their BGN rating is better than any "mint" item from other sellers. Add in a warranty & why bother with anyone else? Ebay is garbage and no longer worth the effort.
 
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Like prison where everyone is innocent, everything is mint on ebay. 🙂

That said, there are some very reliable sellers that rate their stuff conservatively.

Many ebay sellers are posting cameras they know nothing about (they admit it in their auctions) and what appears to be 'mint' to them, may in fact be far from it. This goes both for estate sellers and family who have received granddad's wartime Leica, that hasn't been exercised in 40 years and has been sitting on a shelf in the garage collecting haze and fungus...
 
I'm in agreement with some of the others here -- using a 'mint' camera scares me, and I'd much prefer to use one that's in nice shape, but not perfect. I'd be too afraid of getting mint camera dinged or scratched, then it'd no longer be mint.

You should be able to find a good IIIf no problem -- I just got a really nice IIIf RD ST body a couple of months ago for $270, so they're definitely out there.
 
As a former bookseller I can attest to how unrealistic most 'mint' descriptions are. As per others I'd be afraid to use a mint anything as I'd be paying for something that can't be preserved and used and enjoyed all at the same time (but you might be able to have 2 out of 3 - but not any 2 out 3!). To my mind mint implies too nice to be used.

I have what I consider to be a beautiful IIIf and when I showed it to another camera guy he described it as "about as nice you'd hope to find". But that's the kind of subjective response that we all have to make when 'it' is in our hands - either it meets our expectations or it doesn't.

There are plenty of decent III's out there - I'd probably skip ebay though and either deal with a dealer or buy from someone here.
 
Brian Sweeney said:
A mint Leica IIIf- expect to pay a mint for it. I would expect one to go for $2000.

EX+ condition, should not have dents, dings, and just minimum of marks on the chrome. KEH has a couple listed between $500 and $600. That will be your best bet.

http://www.keh.com/search?store=cam...&ccode=2&grade=Grade&sprice=0&eprice=0&r=SE&e
Click to expand...
Brian, you hit the nail on the head. Too many buyers want mint at bargain prices. Mint for a 60 y/o camera is damn rare and commands a major price premium.

While I'm on the topic I might mention that Leica buyers are sometimes hell to sell to, even when one has a lens or camera in very good condition. I've had highly desirable Leica cameras and lenses, in very, very good condition cosmetically and operationally, returned to me for no good reason or sometimes just a pretext. I suspect that there is an awful lot of cherry picking going on - obsession driven collectors no doubt. I really have a hard time understanding what drives some collectors to seek ancient cameras in new condition, but each to his own I guess.
 
Look at what's sold here in these classifieds or what people purchase and how much gear is described as "mint" except for marks or a ding or the shutter drags or the viewfinder is hazy.

And of course, there's the ever questionable "minty," which is baffling. KevinsCameras loves this term.
 
But, I've one or two cameras that are almost mint. Meaning to me no blemishes or marks, scratches etc, etc. But if I then used them and - not unusual - the coin slot in the battery cover was distorted or the legs got a bit of wear I'd think it fair to say "mint apart from the lugs" and so on. To me "apart from" means just that and what follows describes the exception to the "mint" state. It's like saying "almost mint" because you get the picture in a few words. Whether you can believe the sellers is another matter...

I'll go alone with everyone who'd rather have a usable camera, btw. Not much point in having a camera you dare not use in case it gets damaged and very little fun to dusting the things.

Regards, David
 
David Hughes said:
I'd think it fair to say "mint apart from the lugs" and so on. To me "apart from" means just that and what follows describes the exception to the "mint" state. It's like saying "almost mint" because you get the picture in a few words.
Click to expand...

No, that would be "excellent except for", or "very good". Mint is a pretty straightforward definition: Absolutely unused and in original factory condition. For many collectors, even fingerprints are a spiritual flaw that cannot be removed by cleaning. Any wear mark or scratch firmly and finally makes the camera non-mint.
 
'Mint' is probably the most over-used adjective on Ebay.

To me it means unused, spotless and complete with all original packaging - but then I'm famous for being picky about the condition of cameras I buy. However, I have to have a wry smile when I see cameras described on Ebay as 'mint and in full working order', only to read further in the description that it has scratches, marks on it and that it 'could probably do with a service as one of the shutter curtains has come loose'.

A good source for accurately described screw mount Leicas is Peter Loy:

http://www.peterloy.com/

He will usually let you have the camera on approval and also guarantees many of them for six months.

You may also wish to try:

http://vintageclassiccamera.com/

John
 
It's what I call "MadisonAv speak"... with a nod to the era when the great American marketing and advertising firms all had their HQ's on Madison Avenue in NYC.

Folks will say anything to get you to buy.

And it's not always borne out of a desire to deceive... many e-bay sellers just don't know any different, and copy lingo they see from other listings...

And it's not just limited to cameras / photographica...

And yes, it's frustrating as hell....

( And as for "minty", maybe the item just tastes and smells good, and "takes you away", like biting into a York Peppermint Patty... 😀 )
 
My over-2M serial number F3HP is mint. I bought two, one is used although it is 10/10 cosmetically. The other is still in the Box.

Otherwise, all of my cameras are used. Some used less than others.
 
My favourite on you-know-who was/is

"Camera is not tested cosmetically in good condition for its age"

and it's still for sale (Minolta XD-7).

Regards, David
 
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