Mmmmm 11

[Sonnar Brian]

> I don't understand how using the M11 with the mechanical, optical finder is any different in terms of shutter latency compared to the M10.

The Shutter starts out in the open position for metering to operate. It is always open, just as it is in liveview mode. Once you press the release, the shutter must close, make the exposure, open again. It's like a Kodak Retina Reflex. I prefer a IIIS over the Reflex-S. Leica could add a firmware mode to leave the shutter closed while using the optical viewfinder, but metering would be disabled. This would require new firmware.

 

[willie_901]

The M11 has certain advantages.

• As with all other digital M bodies, one can continue to use their M/LTM lenses.
• The technical image quality (resolution and, or signal-to-noise ratio and dynamic range) is similar to 60 MP digital medium format cameras.
  • As has been the case for decades, the smaller, lighter Leica body and lenses offer a unique advantage - convenience without sacrificing function..
  • Similarly, those who prefer analog, mechanical focusing and composing while viewing outside the frame have a means to do so with no sensor performance compromise.
  • There is another option than a digital medium format sensor camera. Considering lens costs associated with changing to digital medium format, the M11 could even be price competitive.
• Anytime a scene does not require all 60 MP, acquisition pixel binning can be implemented to increase SNR and DR. This is-one of the few consumer, still cameras that can take take advantage of high photos density and any circumstance.

Are these advantages worth the price difference between the M10R and the M11? I don't think so. If a still photographer was ready to upgrade from a M8/M9/M240 body, and kept digital camera bodies 5 or more years, the M11 would be tempting. I would think this would be especially so for those who are interested in larger prints.

In a parallel universe were I was actually interested in owning Leica cameras and lenses, right now I would buy a M10 or M10R.

 

[olakiril]

[*]There is another option than a digital medium format sensor camera. Considering lens costs associated with changing to digital medium format, the M11 could even be price competitive..

There are a lot of FF cameras out there with high MP and quality similar to digital MF. So price competitive the M11 is certainly not.

Panasonic S1R
Nikon D850
Nikon Z7II
Sony A7R IV
Sony A1
Canon EOS R5
Canon EOS 5DS

Now if you need the high MP with a manual rangefinder experience then M11/M10R are your only choices.

It’s the kind of simple, long lasting camera that has limitations but is really good at simply documenting something, good for a certain kind of photographer but also good for the person whose primary interest is in the subject.

Let's not forget that we are lucky that so many cameras out there can fit that definition.

 

[Out to Lunch]

"In a parallel universe were I was actually interested in owning Leica cameras and lenses, right now I would buy a M10 or M10R."

Depending on the price of a second-hand M10 or M10R, yes. If I'd have the choice between a new M10R or M11, I'd get the M11: they cost exactly the same. Cheers, OtL.

 

[Canyongazer]

Bless those who buy new Leica's.
Without them there would be no used Leica's for sale.
Heck, without them there would be no Leica GmbH at all.

 

[anerjee]

It's a mirrorless camera with an auxiliary rangefinder on it. The always-on sensor increases lag when taking a photograph.
If my M9 goes out, I'll look for a gently used M10.

The M11 is electronic- and electronics die. Basic components stop working. Specialized components like the onboard processors get EOL "end-of-Life". Twenty years- we'll see how many still work. If the electronics need to be replaced, that is a major problem. The M3 will outlast the M11.

Agree, and the biggest issue likely will be the battery - electronics outlast the batteries that power them.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

There are companies that specialize in rebuilding battery packs: Opening custom/sealed packs and replacing just the cells. I have three old/non-working battery packs for the M8- thinking of giving it a try. It is not cheap, but worth trying for one.

I bought three new Leica batteries for the M9/M Monochrom/M8 in the last year. The originals- lasted about 10 years.

 

[ptpdprinter]

Agree, and the biggest issue likely will be the battery - electronics outlast the batteries that power them.

Unless they die in the interim, nearly everyone who buys an M11 is going to upgrade to an M12, so a lack of batteries will be someone else's problem. Besides, batteries are still available for the M8 which was introduced in 2006.

 

[icebear]

Who really, really, really 'needs' an M11 ?

I seriously think it will make very Few a 'Better' photographer

Hi Helen,

you are right, no one really needs an M11 ... but for sure it would be darn nice to have one ;-).
On the other hand I have a working MM (orig. M9M that is) which is I guess about 10 years old. It's far from obsolete in terms of image quality.
And I guess never has a new piece of equipment made anyone a better photographer. Possibly the images came out technically better but that's about it.


On a different subject:
As for the sensor size (MP count): I don't know why anyone would allow the files in preparation for printing be in their "native" resolution only and not use appropriate re-sizing in LR to get to the proper file size for the required resolution for the print size? The files from the MM (18MP) gave stunning 24x36" prints. I wouldn't know what to do with all the remaining pixels from an M11 ;-)

 

[fireblade]

Lots of people buy Porsches and drive them to the grocery store. Leicas are no different. That being said, I would certainly buy a Porsche and a Leica before I bought a boat. Right now, there is a guy on a boat forum rationalizing why he needs to buy a top of the line boat so he can putt putt over to the marina to get gas and then head over to have lunch at this restaurant on the other side of the lake. After lunch, he is going down to the boat dealership to look at sonar fish finders.

The boat owner you just described is the rare one...yet that boat owner you described is the exact Leica owner.

 

[jsrockit]

On a different subject:
As for the sensor size (MP count): I don't know why anyone would allow the files in preparation for printing be in their "native" resolution only and not use appropriate re-sizing in LR to get to the proper file size for the required resolution for the print size? The files from the MM (18MP) gave stunning 24x36" prints. I wouldn't know what to do with all the remaining pixels from an M11 ;-)

Let us remember that at 60mp, you get a 20x30 inch print at 300dpi. At 18mp, you get a 12x18 inch print at 300dpi. That is pretty much going to be a perfect print with out any enlarging artifacts even up close and personal. To double print size at 300dpi we almost need 3-4x the MPs. Once we go lower in DPI, which we can, we are lowering the resolution and relying on viewing distance. We of course have had to go to lower DPIs over the years for obvious reasons but now we do not have to. That said, the MM is know for punching above its 18mp sensor in prints. It is like the Sigma DP Merrill series in that regard. I am sure it is not new info for you Klaus. And while I say this, I actually prefer smaller prints. In the darkroom, large was very hard to do. Now you just need a big inkjet. We are lucky in some regards.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

How did we ever enlarge a 35mm negative more than an 8x10. For a 20x30 print, unless you give people a magnifying glass and tell them the viewing distance is 2 inches, 300DPI is overkill.

For the M11: put in a 15MPixel Monochrome mode into the firmware and combine the 2x2 Bayer filter into a Monochrome Pixel. Or do in post. Would be close to the M Monochrom in resolution, and have more headroom for saturation. That can be the M2 mode/ 15MPixel Monochrome output.

 

[jsrockit]

How did we ever enlarge a 35mm negative more than an 8x10. For a 20x30 print, unless you give people a magnifying glass and tell them the viewing distance is 2 inches, 300DPI is overkill.

For the M11: put in a 15MPixel Monochrome mode into the firmware and combine the 2x2 Bayer filter into a Monochrome Pixel. Or do in post. Would be close to the M Monochrom in resolution, and have more headroom for saturation. That can be the M2 mode/ 15MPixel Monochrome output.

Overkill is subjective. People make ridiculously large prints for gallery and museum use. Expectations change. There are galleries in Japan where people bring loupes to look at fine details within prints on the wall. Things change and we all cannot agree on what is right or necessary. I have no issue with having a high MP file. It really is no big deal to me. It is a little more HD space. However, I also use lower resolution cameras too. I prefer books to gallery walls though.

 

[ptpdprinter]

Let us remember that at 60mp, you get a 20x30 inch print at 300dpi. At 18mp, you get a 12x18 inch print at 300dpi.

If icebear is printing 24"x36" with his 18MP MM, he is either printing at ~145dpi or he is up-rezzing his image. It is unlikely he is printing at ~145dpi. Similarly with a 60MP M11; for a 24"x36" print, he would be printing at ~267dpi or up-rezzing his image. Both calculations assume he is printing full frame with no cropping. You can still get great prints, but there are no "remaining pixels" to discard with either camera.

 

[jsrockit]

If icebear is printing 24"x36" with his 18MP MM, he is either printing at ~145dpi or he is up-rezzing his image. It is unlikely he is printing at ~145dpi. Similarly with a 60MP M11; for a 24"x36" print, he would be printing at ~267dpi or up-rezzing his image. Both calculations assume he is printing full frame with no cropping. You can still get great prints, but there are no "remaining pixels" to discard with either camera.

You are preaching to the choir here 🙂

 

[ptpdprinter]

How did we ever enlarge a 35mm negative more than an 8x10. For a 20x30 print, unless you give people a magnifying glass and tell them the viewing distance is 2 inches, 300DPI is overkill.

We made do with 35mm, and many photographers went to medium format and large format to achieve the quality they desired.

With respect to viewing distance, there are no velvet ropes at galleries. I look at photographs up close and far away. When I am looking at a box of my prints, my arms aren't eight feet long.

 

[ptpdprinter]

You are preaching to the choir here 🙂

Icebear didn't sound like he was joining in the chorus. 🙂

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Put another way- 9528 pixels/ 35.8mm on the long side, 2 pixels per line, you need a lens that resolves 133 line pairs per millimeter to match this sensor.

The lens itself is the anti-aliasing filter.

 

[robert blu]

I understand with 60 MP it is possible to make very large prints. I'm curious to know how many among us or among Leica users print such a large size to need 60 MP. And yes,of course I understand the benefit of the cropping factor.

Personally I like small prints because more intimate. But this is just me, not so important in a wider view 🙂 and a different topic.

 

[jsrockit]

I understand with 60 MP it is possible to make very large prints. I'm curious to know how many among us or among Leica users print such a large size to need 60 MP. And yes,of course I understand the benefit of the cropping factor.

Personally I like small prints because more intimate. But this is just me, not so important in a wider view 🙂 and a different topic.

I think you have to understand that Leica does not make the specs of its cameras for the majority, but for those that truly need it. Then it trickles down to the majority who have conversations like this one. 🙂