shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
Ever thought why this "stupid" idea comes up over and over again?
Because it's not stupid.
Consider this, digital cameras do require a screen to operate. But they do not *require* a big preview screen that takes up space, eats battery, and encourages chimping.
A much smaller screen can show any information about the cards, ISO, histogram, and battery.
Q: But what about preview? Gotta have my preview!!
A: I agree. I do as well, sometimes. The solution, think about the technology we have today for 5 minutes, I guarantee you'd come up with one or two ways already.
JMQ
Well-known
Shadowfox, I believe the op is asking screen or no screen, not the size of the screen.
judsonzhao
Well-known
You can just buy a full body case and you won't see the screen
An MM2 is very likely, but no schedule/rumors yet, I guess not in this year
An MM2 is very likely, but no schedule/rumors yet, I guess not in this year
aeturnum
Established
Leica, or some other maker, could produce a "screenless" digital camera. It would require a program on PC to manage settings (or a smart phone app that connects to the camera wirelessly). There are no technical barriers to doing this - camera makers already have apps that control their cameras remotely.
However, much like a monochromatic sensor, or a rangefinder, this is another feature which limits the number of people who would consider buying a camera. Such a camera would be a little cheaper to manufacture, but it would still be expensive to develop. I think it would be unlikely to make its development costs back (unless you're willing to pony up 100k per camera
).
That said, hand checking film is a huge pain (and one that people who haven't needed to do it won't understand). Also, to all those saying you "need" to check a histogram for digital - how do you check a histogram on film? At least on digital extra shots "for safety" are free.
A screen-less MM would also need an ISO dial and some mechanism to indicate remaining storage / battery. Also, while it would work fine, it seems like overkill. Just don't review your photos 'til you get home - that's what I do.
However, much like a monochromatic sensor, or a rangefinder, this is another feature which limits the number of people who would consider buying a camera. Such a camera would be a little cheaper to manufacture, but it would still be expensive to develop. I think it would be unlikely to make its development costs back (unless you're willing to pony up 100k per camera
). That said, hand checking film is a huge pain (and one that people who haven't needed to do it won't understand). Also, to all those saying you "need" to check a histogram for digital - how do you check a histogram on film? At least on digital extra shots "for safety" are free.
A screen-less MM would also need an ISO dial and some mechanism to indicate remaining storage / battery. Also, while it would work fine, it seems like overkill. Just don't review your photos 'til you get home - that's what I do.
Out to Lunch
Ventor
Consider buying either the Epson R-D1, or the R-D1s. Both cameras allow you to flip/hide the screen. Problem solved.
phil devries
phil devries
Errr, perhaps I do not understand the question. Why not treat the MM like a film camera and turn the screen off when shooting so as to not see the histogram, shot capture etc unless you want to see that info? Surely it is easy enough to ignore the screen as a dead space just like we all ignored the back of older M cameras that had ISO/ASA dials - excepting when light meter sensitivity/film speed needed changing. Why all this cosmetic stuff and not just make pictures? Surely that is why we have cameras, no?
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
I am an old analog B&W film guy who went to art school in the 70's; I never-ever thought I would go digital (don't even scan); but Leica somehow made the perfect digital camera for a guy like me when it made/created the Monochrom. Basically it is like a dream come true, and I was forced to buy one.
Leica performed a very thoughful design that I would call elegant that does not offer lots of features that are not needed. Realize that the Monochrom's histogram displays 10 zones of tonality really 9 zones and paper white) and that clipping indicators for both the shadows and the highlights are great tools to optimize exposure (I set my clipping indicators to 1%). This graphic display is a great tool to use to optimize exposure to make broad histograms that capture the most information, while at the same time helps minimize noise and digital artifact by "shooting to the right" by helping you optimize the signal to noise level before clipping the highlights.
WHY WOULD YOU NOT WANT TO USE SUCH A GREAT TOOL??? Are you going to rely on post processing to rescue an image thinking that exposure is not important? All I can tell you is that either with film or digital if you want high image quality and great tonality is is both easier and better to optimize everthing at the time of image capture.
Even though I have decades of experience, I can tell you that the Monochrom has done more to improve my photography in the less than two years that I have owned one than the decades of shooting film. In digital exposure and controling light has an exaggerated importance and more or less is unforgiving like shooting slow slide film. Without using the display I can't see anyone being able to fully utilize the full potential of the Monochrom.
As far as improvements that I would like to see if Leica decides to advance the Monochrom's capabilities, here is what I would want: a larger display; optional VF'er magnification (0.85 for use with longer lenses); the faster buffer of the "M;" and option to strip out those nasty 75mm framelines that clutter my 50mm frame.
I would not want all the additional features like focus peaking and video that come with an "M." Leica please don't add all the frills I don't want, and keep in mind that you are catering to a guy like me who is strictly a B&W only shooter. I'm thinking I would buy an a la carte Monochrom if I could get one.
Cal
Leica performed a very thoughful design that I would call elegant that does not offer lots of features that are not needed. Realize that the Monochrom's histogram displays 10 zones of tonality really 9 zones and paper white) and that clipping indicators for both the shadows and the highlights are great tools to optimize exposure (I set my clipping indicators to 1%). This graphic display is a great tool to use to optimize exposure to make broad histograms that capture the most information, while at the same time helps minimize noise and digital artifact by "shooting to the right" by helping you optimize the signal to noise level before clipping the highlights.
WHY WOULD YOU NOT WANT TO USE SUCH A GREAT TOOL??? Are you going to rely on post processing to rescue an image thinking that exposure is not important? All I can tell you is that either with film or digital if you want high image quality and great tonality is is both easier and better to optimize everthing at the time of image capture.
Even though I have decades of experience, I can tell you that the Monochrom has done more to improve my photography in the less than two years that I have owned one than the decades of shooting film. In digital exposure and controling light has an exaggerated importance and more or less is unforgiving like shooting slow slide film. Without using the display I can't see anyone being able to fully utilize the full potential of the Monochrom.
As far as improvements that I would like to see if Leica decides to advance the Monochrom's capabilities, here is what I would want: a larger display; optional VF'er magnification (0.85 for use with longer lenses); the faster buffer of the "M;" and option to strip out those nasty 75mm framelines that clutter my 50mm frame.
I would not want all the additional features like focus peaking and video that come with an "M." Leica please don't add all the frills I don't want, and keep in mind that you are catering to a guy like me who is strictly a B&W only shooter. I'm thinking I would buy an a la carte Monochrom if I could get one.
Cal
Pioneer
Veteran
I am with Cal. I think that most of the digital M cameras are about as close as anyone will get to the feel of a "film" camera in digital. The additional tools that have been provided just provide you the opportunity to get even more out of the camera.
I recently purchased an MM and had some of the same questions you have, including how well the M (240) would work. So I rented both cameras and used each for a week. I finally ended up choosing on the MM. I had not heard or read any rumors that a new MM is coming out anytime soon. I finally decided that it really didn't matter.
Sometimes the next new thing is just new and different...not necessarily better.
I recently purchased an MM and had some of the same questions you have, including how well the M (240) would work. So I rented both cameras and used each for a week. I finally ended up choosing on the MM. I had not heard or read any rumors that a new MM is coming out anytime soon. I finally decided that it really didn't matter.
Sometimes the next new thing is just new and different...not necessarily better.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Congrats on your MM. Other than the few custom options I would like, that I memtioned above, the MM is a very well thought out camera. Leica did a really great job, and I don't see very radically different monochrom camera evolving unless they come out with a Monochrom version of the Leica "S." Making a Monochrom version of the Leica "M" could be interesting, but at a certain point mega pixels only go so far, and the MM in my opinion has high enough resolution. Where I think it counts the most will be pixel size and this favors the larger sensor of the Leica "S."
BTW try setting up the auto ISO to 125/650. I found this very useful. I find that at 650 the grain and contrast is very nice, for resolution 320 ISO is nicer, but 650 ISO just has a bit of dirt that is very film like. By setting up the auto ISO the Monochrom automatically boosts the ISO one stop automatically to keep the shutter speed high, and a faster shutter speed helps with sharpness. For me its set and forget. This is another thoughtful feature that everyone should use.
The unforgiving nature of digital compounded by the way the Monochrom sensor works requires precision, but precision is well rewarded. I still shoot a lot of film, but I shoot less 120 because the MM can give me medium format quality.
Cal
Samouraï
Well-known
Mmm, interesting concept.
I fear without a screen one would be losing a little more than “options to format the card, review a histogram, etc”.
Without a screen, how would one negotiate the menus to customize the camera?
Okay, I guess one could set up the camera by plugging it into a computer. But in the field?
Why do you need to customize the camera? Set ISO by a dial on the rear, and make it only shoot raw. White balance?
Make it fully manual. Basically a digital M3. The only issue is that digital captures are a lot less forgiving than film neg.
f16sunshine
Moderator
My comments probaby echo others but here goes..
The MM is a camera that should be consiered for the uniqueness of the output.
I'm only condiering one beacuse of it's files how ever careful one needs to be to produce
them.
It should not be considered for it's novelty as a digital Rangefinder in the B+W realm. Some sort of digital throwback device in B+W only.
Elliminating useful tools like screens to display histograms is silly. If care in exposure is more norrowly defined a screen is the last thing one would want to eliminate!
I don't like chimping but I sure appreciete that I can save a shot in the filed by doing so.
One develops on instinct for knowong when to check and see if you got it or not.
Not having that screen would be awful at this point of familiarity!
If Leica can improve on the present MM it should.
Those improvements might be a more flexible file with even more headroom for exposure. Mor MP's seems silly tough maybe not.
User Features added or elimianted otherwise seems silly.
I may take an MM in the next year. Aagin it's the uniquness of the files that intrigues me... nothing more.
Cheers
The MM is a camera that should be consiered for the uniqueness of the output.
I'm only condiering one beacuse of it's files how ever careful one needs to be to produce
them.
It should not be considered for it's novelty as a digital Rangefinder in the B+W realm. Some sort of digital throwback device in B+W only.
Elliminating useful tools like screens to display histograms is silly. If care in exposure is more norrowly defined a screen is the last thing one would want to eliminate!
I don't like chimping but I sure appreciete that I can save a shot in the filed by doing so.
One develops on instinct for knowong when to check and see if you got it or not.
Not having that screen would be awful at this point of familiarity!
If Leica can improve on the present MM it should.
Those improvements might be a more flexible file with even more headroom for exposure. Mor MP's seems silly tough maybe not.
User Features added or elimianted otherwise seems silly.
I may take an MM in the next year. Aagin it's the uniquness of the files that intrigues me... nothing more.
Cheers
android
Established
The hand check can be a real hassle, especially when you have a queue of people behind you and the conversation takes more than 20 seconds. People get impatient quickly.
The other reason for looking at the Monochrom is low light capability. I'm often caught with a roll of <400 ISO of an evening and would appreciate the Monochrome in that situation. Alternatives are to rewind the film and replace or buy a second M2/3 but the Monochrom is very enticing.
lukitas
second hand noob
At the risk of being called out for being a silly old fart, I would love to see an M3 with a monochrome sensor, and an ISO button (on the back, same as the reminder), and nothing more.
There are no histograms on a film camera : if you blow your shots, you learn from your negatives. Having variable ISO, and not having to handle and process film, are the only things I want from digital. This said, I hate the shape and ergonomics of my digital camera so much that I am willing to invest all the time and money in processing film, shooting the M3 and M2 is such a pleasure. The D3100 sits on the rail of my enlarger, and scans full-frame negatives.
So I weep hot tears at he thought of how many years I need to save before I can buy an M Monochrom. But if they came up with a pared down version of the Monochrom, an M3 with an ISO button and a slot for a card and a battery in the bottom, I think I might convince myself to steal, murder, or prostitute my daughter (I don't think I'd get enough from selling my grandmother) to get one. I wouldn't even miss an auto position on the shutter speed dial.
That is one thing I like very much about mechanical camera's : if I miss a shot, it's my own fault, and I have to work out for myself what I did wrong. The fact that every shot, from shooting to processing and editing, is a learning experience. And I often learn more from the ones I discard than I do from the keepers.
I do know it is perfectly possible to set up most modern cameras to work entirely "manually' : shutter-speed, f-stop, focus. What bugs me is the blobby shape of the canikons, the tumorous outgrowth of the lenses, the profusion of buttons, switches, knobs and hieroglyphs. A toad with warts and a big black tube sticking out its mouth. Even my Fed2 gives a more satisfying shooting experience, the old leica's are just sweet...
cheers
There are no histograms on a film camera : if you blow your shots, you learn from your negatives. Having variable ISO, and not having to handle and process film, are the only things I want from digital. This said, I hate the shape and ergonomics of my digital camera so much that I am willing to invest all the time and money in processing film, shooting the M3 and M2 is such a pleasure. The D3100 sits on the rail of my enlarger, and scans full-frame negatives.
So I weep hot tears at he thought of how many years I need to save before I can buy an M Monochrom. But if they came up with a pared down version of the Monochrom, an M3 with an ISO button and a slot for a card and a battery in the bottom, I think I might convince myself to steal, murder, or prostitute my daughter (I don't think I'd get enough from selling my grandmother) to get one. I wouldn't even miss an auto position on the shutter speed dial.
That is one thing I like very much about mechanical camera's : if I miss a shot, it's my own fault, and I have to work out for myself what I did wrong. The fact that every shot, from shooting to processing and editing, is a learning experience. And I often learn more from the ones I discard than I do from the keepers.
I do know it is perfectly possible to set up most modern cameras to work entirely "manually' : shutter-speed, f-stop, focus. What bugs me is the blobby shape of the canikons, the tumorous outgrowth of the lenses, the profusion of buttons, switches, knobs and hieroglyphs. A toad with warts and a big black tube sticking out its mouth. Even my Fed2 gives a more satisfying shooting experience, the old leica's are just sweet...
cheers
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
However, a monochrome digital camera has the annoying habit of blowing highlights like slide film. No gentle roll-off like negative film. Which means you must be able to check the histogram on critical shots - and is the reason the Monochrom has a raw zone-type histogram.
If you want to do superior B&W photography digitally (and profit from a more gentle highlight behaviour) without breaking the bank, buy yourself an M8 and set it to black and white JPG. Add a DNG in case you think you can beat the camera in post processing and have fun
Any digital M camera will behave exactly like an M6 as soon as you take the shutter speed off A. And that is exactly like an M3 with TTL exposure metering.
If you want to do superior B&W photography digitally (and profit from a more gentle highlight behaviour) without breaking the bank, buy yourself an M8 and set it to black and white JPG. Add a DNG in case you think you can beat the camera in post processing and have fun
Any digital M camera will behave exactly like an M6 as soon as you take the shutter speed off A. And that is exactly like an M3 with TTL exposure metering.
lukitas
second hand noob
Ok, I'll admit, a histogram isn't a sorry thing to have. Still, long ago, when I still did slides, I learned to expose for highlights. I suppose I could learn to do so again.
Pioneer
Veteran
I certainly have a lot to learn about the MM but so far it has responded very well to working as Lukitas suggests. I shoot a lot of slides and am very accustomed to metering the highlights to establish my exposure. I have been doing the same with the MM and, so far, have been very happy with the results.
I rarely look at the screen, and the few times I have the photos look very dark. But they seem to develop just fine in Lightroom so I have kind of given up looking. Besides, I learned a long time ago with my M9 that the rear screen was not to be trusted for anything important. You have to wait until you see it for real.
Come to think of it...a lot like film.
I rarely look at the screen, and the few times I have the photos look very dark. But they seem to develop just fine in Lightroom so I have kind of given up looking. Besides, I learned a long time ago with my M9 that the rear screen was not to be trusted for anything important. You have to wait until you see it for real.
Come to think of it...a lot like film.
android
Established
This is a stupid idea and it comes up over and over again :bang:.
The MM is a digital camera.
You need a menu to control all functions and settings.
To optimize your exposure you need to work with the histogram.
Otherwise yeah - get some black tape of a color of your choice
Or maybe there is even some 18% reflective grey tape
http://petapixel.com/2014/09/16/leica-m-edition-60-leica-celebrates-60-years-m-series-lcd-less-rangefinder/
airfrogusmc
Veteran
Hi,
As a happy M2 owner and lover of film, I find my head being turned by the Monochrom. Main reason is that having travelled extensively over the last three months, I'm ready to call time on the film hand check requests at every airport security gate. I usually manage to convince but it's not always easy, and it's always tedious. In addition, a second M body and the increased ISO flexibility would be very welcome.
The Monochrom has been around for a couple of years now and while I don't see any real reason for an updated Monochrom (though I haven't used one), there is one thing that I would love to see: a Monochrom that does not include a screen. It may sound crazy but IMHO the screen makes the camera look less like a camera and more like an electronic device (ok, I know that's what it really is..). We may lose options to format the card, review a histogram, etc, but personally I'd be okay with that.
My question is, does anyone feel that Leica would ever consider a Monochrom that doesn't include a screen? I guess most would say no, you're mad!
Apologies if my questions come across as naive, I've only very recently considered the Monochrom.
Many thanks
andy
I love my MM... Even if Leica does come out with a new model I won't upgrade. No reason to. I get clean files at 3200. I have shot all of my personal work on my MM for almost 2 years now and it is an amazing camera. It is the only B&W digital process I have liked. The only camera I have bonded with since buying my 500 C/Ms in the mid 1980s...
Vics
Veteran
Predicting what Leica will do next is a very dicey business at best. It is fun to read back over last month's predictions in light oif Leica's new announcement, though.
http://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/Leica-M-Edition-60
http://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/Leica-M-Edition-60
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Vic,
I think the Monochrom rumors from over two years ago were the best examples of now dated remarks. I remember in one post that someone called Leica "Stupid." LOL.
Others said, "Who would buy a B&W only camera?" LOL.
Then there were all these technical arguments. Gotta love RFF for its "entertainment value."
Basically though Leica built my dream camera. Now my two year old MM is displaying heavy wear.
Cal