more grain with 120

[bukaj]

I've got an idea of a project with a creepy/horror theme. I want to shoot it with my TLR and think a b&w grainy look would give it the feel it needs. shots will be outdoor and indoor at night. Problem is medium format just isn't all that grainy. So how do I get more? Since it's dark, I'd like to retain shadow detail. I know generally pushing film looses shadow detail. What can I do to get this look?

I have a few rolls of tri-x, but could get other film. I develop at a public lab space so I have a choice of HC-110 or Clayton F76. Final product will be prints on ilford fb glossy paper.

Not looking for the final answer, just some suggestions so I can start experimenting to get the look I want.

thanks,
-jakub

 

[Harry S.]

Push the Tri-X to atleast 1600 would be the obvious one. It would help with your night exposures too.

 

[bukaj]

Yeah, was planning on doing that, maybe even 3200. Problem as I mentioned would be loosing shadow detail, and that might not be enough. Wonder if there's other things I can do in the development process (agitation, temperature, etc) to bring out grain.

 

[mfogiel]

Generally, grain will increase if you develop longer, agitate more, use higher temperetures, overexpose the film and use a grainy film and developer. Pushing the film does not lose shadow detail, but increases the contrast by building too much density in the highlights. If you want a push without losing much shadow detail and blowing the highlights, you should try the stand (compensating) development in Rodinal, for example, as suggested in a tutorial in another thread active now.

 

[tlitody]

use delta 3200 and develop in Ilford Microphen. Expose at 3200 and develop using stock solution at 20degC for 9 mins. You will get normal contrast and genuine 3200 speed and grain will be noticeable.

Strong rodinal is also grainy 1:25 or stronger.

 

[grainhound]

I experimented with lith film quite a while ago with my Mamiya TLR (shoot b/w film, dev, contact print that onto lith film, contact print a 2nd time for a negative with no middle tones). Grainy negs were essential for this. I ended up using a lot of Ilford HP5, and developing it in Rodinal 1+25, using the times given by Agfa. That worked well for me.

 

[tj01]

Even with Rodinal, grain would still be quite insignificant. Perhaps use paper developer and experiment from there. You would get golf balls.

 

[jbielikowski]

you can check this thread.

 

[retnull]

Difficult to get extreme grain in 120 format...do you have the option to use another format? 135 makes your grain three to four times as big. Half-frame 135 would be six to eight times as big: this is how Daido Moriyama got his radically grainy images.

 

[Leigh Youdale]

I got some "good" grain once with Fomapan 400 and Rodinal, but I think you want something more extreme. One other experience has been with Fuji 1600 in 35mm which was underexposed and overdeveloped. So probably effectively rated at 3200 and developed normally, but this was a film that went into high contrast very quickly with prolonged development.
Fuji 1600 isn't available in 120 as far as I know and in any case the grain would be much less compared to 35mm film. I did get a fair amount of grain in 6x7 negatives when using Delta 3200 at box speed in daylight but I think you could get more.
Try testing some Delta 3200 rated at 6400 or even 12500 - Ilford give development times for that in the data sheet for the film. As it's a project it would be worth sacrificing a couple of rolls of film to tests in the conditions you expect to be shooting in, to get the method right before you start the important shots.

I doubt very much that you'll get what you want by using Tr-X or HP5+.

 

[erik]

My advice is: don't under expose. Over expose and over develop. Choose a film that is grainy to start like Fomapan 400 or Delta 3200. Remember that Delta 3200 box speed is 1000. Over agitate, use a high energy developer like a print developer. You'll get there. Michael Kenna gets some pretty decent grain in his prints and he shoots with a Hasselblad. No idea what his film and dev. choice is, but his prints aren't that big but still have a real texture. It's possible.

 

[Leigh Youdale]

One other thing - how confident are you that you will get consistently good focus using a TLR at night? If you haven't tried it yet, do so. You might find it makes working conditions quite difficult using a dim screen with insufficient light.
Using a rangefinder is much easier in these conditions and the smaller negative size will move you in the direction you want to go for grain.

 

[J. Borger]

Michael Kenna gets some pretty decent grain in his prints and he shoots with a Hasselblad. No idea what his film and dev. choice is, but his prints aren't that big but still have a real texture. It's possible.

Trix + Rodinal!

 

[gian]

tri-x + kodak dektol 1:4 at 25°C!!

http://www.agencevu.com/photographers/photographer.php?id=1
http://igorposner.net/

good luck...

 

[tlitody]

I got some "good" grain once with Fomapan 400 and Rodinal, but I think you want something more extreme. One other experience has been with Fuji 1600 in 35mm which was underexposed and overdeveloped. So probably effectively rated at 3200 and developed normally, but this was a film that went into high contrast very quickly with prolonged development.
Fuji 1600 isn't available in 120 as far as I know and in any case the grain would be much less compared to 35mm film. I did get a fair amount of grain in 6x7 negatives when using Delta 3200 at box speed in daylight but I think you could get more.
Try testing some Delta 3200 rated at 6400 or even 12500 - Ilford give development times for that in the data sheet for the film. As it's a project it would be worth sacrificing a couple of rolls of film to tests in the conditions you expect to be shooting in, to get the method right before you start the important shots.

I doubt very much that you'll get what you want by using Tr-X or HP5+.

It's the Microphen which increases the grain significantly. It's a high speed/activity developer. With delta 3200 you get the benefit of full 3200 speed with good shadow detail in dim lighting.
Pushing other films usually results in poor shadow detail because you get such a high contrast result.

 

[ChrisP]

Agree with the above

Agree with the above

Either Delta 3200 and Microphen (possibly rodinal) or else tri-x in paper developer

 

[shadowfox]

If the film is still available, I'd suggest Fortepan 400, alas...

Shoot Tri-X at EI of 800, develop for 12 min in Rodinal 1+25, and agitate the tank like there's no tomorrow.

Please post some samples 🙂

 

[bukaj]

As I mentioned in the first thread, I'm restricted to HC-110 or F76. I don't need extreme grain, just visible grain. Tri-x exposed normally does not give me visible grain.

I exposed a roll at 400 and cut it into 4 pieces. I don't mind dealing with slow shutter speeds since I'm looking for ghostly effects anyway. Developed 3 at 1600 3 different ways and one at 400. The three at 1600 definitely have more grain than developing at 400 when looking at the negatives through a loupe. It took all day to develop them so waiting until I can get into the darkroom again to do some test prints. I'm going to pick up a roll of delta 3200 and do the same test, exposing at 800, 1600 and 3200 and developing at 3200 to see which gives me the results I'm looking for. But I think I'm off to a good start. I'll post scans of my prints and methods to show my results.

-jakub

 

[Tim Gray]

I've always found that Tri-X pushed has less grain than something faster like TMZ or Delta 3200. So I'd personally go with Delta 3200...

Of course, some ISO 400 films from some lower tier manufacturers like Foma might be grainier, but start off with the grainiest film you can get instead of pushing a finer grained alternate if you really want grain.