Bill Pierce
Well-known
I’m going to be on the road for a month which means my time and internet access will be limited. As always, anyone who wants to start a thread on the site is welcome. I’ll jump in when I can. Here’s one last blast before I hit the road, some thought on the old film vs. digital debate.
Having long conversations with friends who prefer film cameras to digital cameras (I'm 99 percent digital.), I’ve come to realize that this is not because of a love of film (although it often masquerades as that) but a hatred of digital. And who can blame them.
If you look at a classic film camera, you have immediate access to meter, set the aperture and shutter speed, set the focus and take the picture. It’s so direct and simple that you can spend most of your time concentrating on the subject.
Many digital cameras rely on an LCD screens menus, sub menus, sub sub menus and so on to control much of the camera’s picture taking. Often the controlled options are excessive and unnecessary and difficult to access at the time you are actually taking a picture. And if you change camera brands don’t expect the new menus, sub menus and sub sub menus to follow the same patterns and procedures of your other camera. And when you come to the digital darkroom expect a parallel situation. That's really sad. The frustration of photographers with digital is understandable.
Hooray for the digital cameras that place the primary and necessary controls as easily accessible dials and other mechanical manual controls and override the need to access sub sub sub menus of ununderstandable phraseology. Cameras aren’t the only modern tools whose designers have confused an unnecessary and confusing complexity with “exciting features.” Contrary to what a number of reviewers have said, you are not mimicking an old fashioned camera when you make a camera with simple external controls that can control the primary functions. You are making a camera that lets you pay attention to the subject, not the tool.
Your thoughts?
Having long conversations with friends who prefer film cameras to digital cameras (I'm 99 percent digital.), I’ve come to realize that this is not because of a love of film (although it often masquerades as that) but a hatred of digital. And who can blame them.
If you look at a classic film camera, you have immediate access to meter, set the aperture and shutter speed, set the focus and take the picture. It’s so direct and simple that you can spend most of your time concentrating on the subject.
Many digital cameras rely on an LCD screens menus, sub menus, sub sub menus and so on to control much of the camera’s picture taking. Often the controlled options are excessive and unnecessary and difficult to access at the time you are actually taking a picture. And if you change camera brands don’t expect the new menus, sub menus and sub sub menus to follow the same patterns and procedures of your other camera. And when you come to the digital darkroom expect a parallel situation. That's really sad. The frustration of photographers with digital is understandable.
Hooray for the digital cameras that place the primary and necessary controls as easily accessible dials and other mechanical manual controls and override the need to access sub sub sub menus of ununderstandable phraseology. Cameras aren’t the only modern tools whose designers have confused an unnecessary and confusing complexity with “exciting features.” Contrary to what a number of reviewers have said, you are not mimicking an old fashioned camera when you make a camera with simple external controls that can control the primary functions. You are making a camera that lets you pay attention to the subject, not the tool.
Your thoughts?
I'm with you 101%. That is why I pay the big bucks for the Leica digital. Simplified manual controls. Sad, but that is our world.
Hsg
who dares wins
I use manual exposure, manual focus, ISO 100 and shoot jpg. This is how any serious photographer would have shot Kodachrome 64 back in the day. I also use an incident light meter when necessary. I never go into the menu when shooting. The only auto feature that I use with digital is auto white balance - film white balance was also preset.
I could go back to film without any hesitation if need be... The technique and discipline is the same between film and digital, that is if one is serious and hungry for interesting results.
I could go back to film without any hesitation if need be... The technique and discipline is the same between film and digital, that is if one is serious and hungry for interesting results.
willie_901
Veteran
Yes, the menus are complex and most cameras offer wide variety of functionality. Sometime this functionality results in unintended consequences. Often the technical writing in the manuals is rather poor and even confusing.
I think there are two solutions.
o learn how to set the camera up in a minimalist way simulate film camera operation
o offer mobile phone/tablet access to the set/change operation parameters and modes
The former requires patience and a learning curve... especially to those changing brands.
The latter is repugnant to those who disdain hi-tech solutions. Sadly there is no guarantee an app would not be a user-experience nightmare. However a carefully thought out, well-designed environment could make life easier. Obviously traditional on-camera menu access and wireless access via mobile apps are not mutually exclusive.
I think there are two solutions.
o learn how to set the camera up in a minimalist way simulate film camera operation
o offer mobile phone/tablet access to the set/change operation parameters and modes
The former requires patience and a learning curve... especially to those changing brands.
The latter is repugnant to those who disdain hi-tech solutions. Sadly there is no guarantee an app would not be a user-experience nightmare. However a carefully thought out, well-designed environment could make life easier. Obviously traditional on-camera menu access and wireless access via mobile apps are not mutually exclusive.
John E Earley
Tuol Sleng S21-0174
I have a mirrorless compact system camera that remains in b&w mode most of the time. This makes it a simple shooter and with LTM lenses on it it is even simpler.
I also have a FF DSLR with all the latest bells and whistles and a plethora of menus to provide advanced control. Mastering all the myriad of functions allows me to do things I otherwise wouldn't be able to do without much more difficulty. It can be extremely complicated and a bit confusing at times but with organized determination it is possible.
I also have a FF DSLR with all the latest bells and whistles and a plethora of menus to provide advanced control. Mastering all the myriad of functions allows me to do things I otherwise wouldn't be able to do without much more difficulty. It can be extremely complicated and a bit confusing at times but with organized determination it is possible.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
I love film, my DSLRs needs zero LCD back screen menus to set ISO, AF point and aperture and my wife never uses menus on advanced P&S. And our pictures will kick not some but most of the azzes.
So, none of us are "them", sorry.
So, none of us are "them", sorry.
michaelwj
----------------
Exactly. I switched from digital to film mainly because I didn't like to process. The camera got in the way, it was too complicated and I didn't feel in control.
Film liberated me from the rear screen.
My love of the medium came later.
airfrogusmc
Veteran
My MM has a fairly basic menu. I shoot manually. Shutter speed dial on the upper right side of the camera body and an aperture ring on the lens. A camera that just gets out of the way and lets me work.
bence8810
Well-known
When I still shot digital - I just used it in Manual only (Sony alpha850) with manual focus and saw only the histogram on the LCD. Then I went to a Fuji X100 and used it with the LCD off - in full manual mode and now film only.
My iPhone is my only digital gear and I use it as point and shoot - wouldn't worry about settings there.
Film is liberating - like it is said above.
Since we aren't talking about film here but Digital cameras and their menus, I agree with the post. It is confusing and takes away from the joy of shooting - which is why I used my ex-Digital cameras always in manual mode ignoring the menu.
Ben
My iPhone is my only digital gear and I use it as point and shoot - wouldn't worry about settings there.
Film is liberating - like it is said above.
Since we aren't talking about film here but Digital cameras and their menus, I agree with the post. It is confusing and takes away from the joy of shooting - which is why I used my ex-Digital cameras always in manual mode ignoring the menu.
Ben
Paul Jenkin
Well-known
I'm not convinced it's a hatred of digital. It certainly isn't from my perspective as I use a D800 as well as an F5 and F6.
I've actually written to Nikon Europe (UK) on a couple of occasions with a recommendation that they produce a top-end digital camera with just ISO, Aperture and Shutter controls. Absolutely no "scene" modes and only a "Programme" mode if they couldn't bear not to offer that functionality. The camera would have no rear screen or menus and just a simple histogram in the viewfinder. Shooting RAW or JPEG (or both) could be a top-plate LCD option.
All tweaks would be done in post processing. All very simple and it needn't be much, if any, larger than an F3. I thought they'd actually done it when the Df was announced initially - until I saw one and read the specification.
IMO, photography is about the photographer being in full control, not just being present when the shutter goes off. In reality, I'm actually more against over-reliance on technology / automation than the medium used, although as a film user for 40+ years, I have no intention of ever abandoning my preferred medium.
I've actually written to Nikon Europe (UK) on a couple of occasions with a recommendation that they produce a top-end digital camera with just ISO, Aperture and Shutter controls. Absolutely no "scene" modes and only a "Programme" mode if they couldn't bear not to offer that functionality. The camera would have no rear screen or menus and just a simple histogram in the viewfinder. Shooting RAW or JPEG (or both) could be a top-plate LCD option.
All tweaks would be done in post processing. All very simple and it needn't be much, if any, larger than an F3. I thought they'd actually done it when the Df was announced initially - until I saw one and read the specification.
IMO, photography is about the photographer being in full control, not just being present when the shutter goes off. In reality, I'm actually more against over-reliance on technology / automation than the medium used, although as a film user for 40+ years, I have no intention of ever abandoning my preferred medium.
robert blu
quiet photographer
It's not I do not like digital, which has many benefits. I do not like digital cameras exactly as you described because of their too complicated operating functions.
The settings I would only need: iso, aperture, speed, wb. manual focus or auto. That's all.
robert
The settings I would only need: iso, aperture, speed, wb. manual focus or auto. That's all.
robert
Ronald M
Veteran
Users make them overly difficult. They are no more difficult than a film camera-same controls. The extra stuff is so you can make a finished digital product, i.e. JPEG, with the specs you like, saturation, color balance etc.
Get out of the JPEG world and back to basics. Or use a few presets to simulate a favorite film. Set and forget.
You no longer need to carry many rolls of film and of different speeds. It is all built into the camera.
Filters are now mostly gone. Another thing you don`t need except for perhaps a pola for controlling reflections and not for darkening a sky.
And the better cameras have the most used controls easily accessible. My D750 and 7000 have U1 and U2 so a quick turn of the dial resets it for different shooting conditions.
Auto focus-don`t get all mixed up with different modes. I use mine on center point point, recompose. It worked for film, why not now.
Then there is the quick menu on Nikons where commonly used settings can be changed easily, items added and taken off as required.
Spend some time to know the camera and you will be a happy camper.
And BTW, raw is just as easy to process if not easier as a JPEG where most of the info is gone. So you need to learn to use Bridge/Photoshop or LR or some program of your choice.
I spent a very long time learning to make a darkroom print to perfection. Invest the same effort in the new medium.
Get out of the JPEG world and back to basics. Or use a few presets to simulate a favorite film. Set and forget.
You no longer need to carry many rolls of film and of different speeds. It is all built into the camera.
Filters are now mostly gone. Another thing you don`t need except for perhaps a pola for controlling reflections and not for darkening a sky.
And the better cameras have the most used controls easily accessible. My D750 and 7000 have U1 and U2 so a quick turn of the dial resets it for different shooting conditions.
Auto focus-don`t get all mixed up with different modes. I use mine on center point point, recompose. It worked for film, why not now.
Then there is the quick menu on Nikons where commonly used settings can be changed easily, items added and taken off as required.
Spend some time to know the camera and you will be a happy camper.
And BTW, raw is just as easy to process if not easier as a JPEG where most of the info is gone. So you need to learn to use Bridge/Photoshop or LR or some program of your choice.
I spent a very long time learning to make a darkroom print to perfection. Invest the same effort in the new medium.
The problem is the engineers that design this crap are NOT great doc photogs themselves...they are camera fondlers.
The 2 worst inventions that came down the pike from the camera fondling engineers were the program dial that replaced the shutter speed dial and Fuji's terrible 'focus by wire.'
They keep dummying down the lenses, removing controls like distance scales for zone focus work and aperture controls and turning gear into useless garbage when it comes to serious doc work.
Leica perfected what is needed in a great doc cam eons ago. All the Japanese had to do was copy it and make it affordable. Was that too much to ask of the camera fondling engineers?
Do you want to know what a camera fondler is?
http://photohostsnapshots.tumblr.com/image/113425792748
That guy spends more time changing buttons than pressing them.
They kicked me out of the Fuji forum. They didn't like me calling them camera fondlers. What else am I going to call them? All you read about is "What did you buy?"..."What are you planning to buy?"
Why not 'What did you shoot'...'What are you planning to shoot?'
Now, I got a dozen shutter buttons myself. But I Loctite them in the cam. Sadly they discontinued the little micro black buttons I like. Now they only come in bright colors...for the camera fondler.
http://photohostsnapshots.tumblr.com/image/113429026918
When I tried to school the Fuji Rumors crew on zone focus they didn't know what I was talking about. Everything is going to hell with the camera fondlers. Only good thing about them is they keep the cam companies in biz with their continual spending.
The fondlers are on an endless search for the perfect cam that somehow is just beyond their reach and is the reason why they can't produce anything worthwhile with their cams...all the while loaded with fancy push buttons, thumbs up, custom skins, hand made straps, leather half cases and ever other GD thing they can think of to put on a cam to bloat their ego and make their cam more useless.
More than a few guys on the Leica forum wanted to spend $20,000 for a Leica with no screen. They felt the screen was the root of their problems... SAD.
http://photohostsnapshots.tumblr.com/image/113425839873
The 2 worst inventions that came down the pike from the camera fondling engineers were the program dial that replaced the shutter speed dial and Fuji's terrible 'focus by wire.'
They keep dummying down the lenses, removing controls like distance scales for zone focus work and aperture controls and turning gear into useless garbage when it comes to serious doc work.
Leica perfected what is needed in a great doc cam eons ago. All the Japanese had to do was copy it and make it affordable. Was that too much to ask of the camera fondling engineers?
Do you want to know what a camera fondler is?
http://photohostsnapshots.tumblr.com/image/113425792748
That guy spends more time changing buttons than pressing them.
They kicked me out of the Fuji forum. They didn't like me calling them camera fondlers. What else am I going to call them? All you read about is "What did you buy?"..."What are you planning to buy?"
Why not 'What did you shoot'...'What are you planning to shoot?'
Now, I got a dozen shutter buttons myself. But I Loctite them in the cam. Sadly they discontinued the little micro black buttons I like. Now they only come in bright colors...for the camera fondler.
http://photohostsnapshots.tumblr.com/image/113429026918
When I tried to school the Fuji Rumors crew on zone focus they didn't know what I was talking about. Everything is going to hell with the camera fondlers. Only good thing about them is they keep the cam companies in biz with their continual spending.
The fondlers are on an endless search for the perfect cam that somehow is just beyond their reach and is the reason why they can't produce anything worthwhile with their cams...all the while loaded with fancy push buttons, thumbs up, custom skins, hand made straps, leather half cases and ever other GD thing they can think of to put on a cam to bloat their ego and make their cam more useless.
More than a few guys on the Leica forum wanted to spend $20,000 for a Leica with no screen. They felt the screen was the root of their problems... SAD.
http://photohostsnapshots.tumblr.com/image/113425839873
kshapero
South Florida Man
With digital I always seem to let the controls get in the way. I am like a hopeless gambler. Lately the Nikon FM3a fills the bill. Let the argument rage on.
daveleo
what?
I hate menus as much as anyone. What works for me is ....
I usually know where I'm going. Set the camera up before I get out of the car or off the train. (Pick a "film", auto-ISO range, highlite and shadow modes, set aperture at F4.0, set raw+jpg, ExpComp dial set to 0).
When I'm on my feet, I only tweak the f-stop and the EC dial as desired.
When the environment makes a big change, i sit and re-do what I did back in the car.
Everyone has their work-arounds
I usually know where I'm going. Set the camera up before I get out of the car or off the train. (Pick a "film", auto-ISO range, highlite and shadow modes, set aperture at F4.0, set raw+jpg, ExpComp dial set to 0).
When I'm on my feet, I only tweak the f-stop and the EC dial as desired.
When the environment makes a big change, i sit and re-do what I did back in the car.
Everyone has their work-arounds
I've gotten over menus. I rarely access them after setting up the camera to fit how I expect it to work.
I'm 100% digital and even I have to admit that film cameras were certainly cooler. However, the digital workflow fits my lifestyle and it is more about photography to me these days. Once I accepted digital cameras for what they are (computers), I respected them a lot more.
I'm 100% digital and even I have to admit that film cameras were certainly cooler. However, the digital workflow fits my lifestyle and it is more about photography to me these days. Once I accepted digital cameras for what they are (computers), I respected them a lot more.
Villanova
Minister of Silly Walks
I agree, Bill. I don't shoot professionally, which gives me the freedom to use film. I try not to get caught up in image quality debates between the two because that's not the overarching reason.
I shoot film because the shooting process is simpler. My cameras (Nikon FE, Leica M2) have no menus, shooting modes, LCDs, presets, etc. I can concentrate on shooting without distractions.
I know you can set digital cameras to shoot simply, avoiding menus, but the point is on my cameras, it's the only way of using them.
I shoot film because the shooting process is simpler. My cameras (Nikon FE, Leica M2) have no menus, shooting modes, LCDs, presets, etc. I can concentrate on shooting without distractions.
I know you can set digital cameras to shoot simply, avoiding menus, but the point is on my cameras, it's the only way of using them.
Georgiy Romanov
stray cat
P-mean-Professional mode. No menus.
daveleo
what?
Isn't P mode cheating ?
If you hack your way through six pages of menus before every shot, people say "you should use film to make your life simpler".
But ..... If you set P mode to make your life simpler, people say "you are not a photographer".
:bang:
Michael Markey
Veteran
I don`t think it takes long to master the menus .
I know how many tabs I need to get to where I want on my two DPM`s
I either use P or set the shutter speed and app onthe GR V.
I know how many tabs I need to get to where I want on my two DPM`s
I either use P or set the shutter speed and app onthe GR V.