shawn
Veteran
I'd love to have it, and am kicking myself for not jumping back when they were around $1200.
At that price.... that would buy a huge amount of film for the panoramic cameras I already have.
Shawn
Most Reliable Electronic Rangefinder Camera?
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I'd love to have it, and am kicking myself for not jumping back when they were around $1200.
At that price.... that would buy a huge amount of film for the panoramic cameras I already have.
Shawn
shawn
Veteran
Curious about this... if it is actual stand alone EEPROM memory chip that probably isn't that big of a deal as there are many universal readers out there which should be able to read out of a good chip and program it into another like device.
But what it might actually be is a programmed micro-controller. That may or may not be able to be read depending upon how the fuse bits are set in the chip.
Anyone ever seen a schematic for the Hexar RF?
Shawn
Pál_K
Cameras. I has it.
Time will prove that simple mechanical cameras, which involve only a gear train for the shutter, a film winding mechanism, and perhaps aperture control, are going to be far more reliable than an electro-mechanical or all-electronic camera. Less complexity is more reliability.
Consider a Nikon F or F2 compared to an F4 or newer.
When a mechanical camera fails, either the mechanism can be repaired or a perfectly good donor part can be found. When an electronic subsystem fails, it’s more difficult to isolate exactly what has failed, but it doesn’t matter because likely a an entire circuit board would need to be replaced.
The issue is that when there are so many electronic and electromechanical subsystems, all it takes is one to fail in order for the camera to become totally unusable. For the F4, there is:
- film winding
- film rewinding
- shutter operation
- aperture control (automated setting of the aperture)
- viewfinder display
- autofocus
- metering
Yes, it may be a motor that’s failed - but that’s still part of the electromechanical environment which electronic design has enabled such a creation to exist.
Fully 100% electronic cameras (digital cameras) for general consumers appeared about 25 years ago. It’s hard to say how many still function because digital cameras from pre-2000 to about 2008 were essentially disposable items (technology advanced so quickly, people upgraded and set the older cameras aside). So, it’s too early to say how long something like a D700 (2008) would last if it were to be used like a film camera (that is, shutter usage similar to a film camera).
Electromechanical cameras such as the F4 (1988) and EOS 1 (1989), EOS 1N (1994) are probably the best examples of the breed in terms of engineering and potential longevity. My two F4s are still working perfectly after 33 years, so I have to say that’s pretty good and better than I expected. However, they are professional-grade cameras built to last. Even so, I am prepared that one day something on them will suddenly fail. Other cameras, such as the lustworthy Minolta XD-11 and various Contaxes, I shy away from because of so many reports of failures.
The cameras which I trust completely are the 100% mechanical ones, most from the 1950’s and 1960’s: Leica, Pentax, and Exakta, to name a few. 70 years old and still the shutters are functioning and accurate. There’s little to go wrong.
Does this stop me from wanting and buying a Nikon Df or Fuji X-100V? Of course not!
Godfrey
somewhat colored
It is as I said before, "Sounds like your mind is made up and there's no point in further discussion."
All cameras, whether mechanical or electronic, have their serviceable working range in use. And all camera have their issues with service, parts, etc. You've already chosen what you feel comfortable with, and what not, so why discuss it further? I'm not monkeying about here in my spare time to convince people who have made up their minds about something already. I'm here to discuss things, to add information where it is appropriate and I have it to add.
Good luck with your equipment. Make photographs.
G
Godfrey
somewhat colored
I think the key word in this is "simple". Complex devices are, of course, much harder to service and repair, and complex devices not designed for service are much harder than that.
Not all "electronic" cameras (meaning cameras with electronically timed shutters) are complex things with a bazillion systems like a Nikon F4 or F6. Nikon didn't repair the shutters for those even when they were new ... they replaced them and sent the old ones to be dismantled for parts for the production line parts supply, or otherwise recycled or trashed them. (I had an F6 ... lovely camera, but too complicated as well as too large and heavy for my taste. Sold it.) Same as for Leica with the R6.2 mechanical shutter ... they were all essentially unrepairable ... and only very rarely actually broke unless abused. (Yes, I have an R6.2 as well ... lovely camera ... a huge lot simpler than an F6 but still basically unrepairable past a certain threshold despite being "mechanical".)
I don't "trust" any camera for 100% reliability and eternal durability. None exist at that level of quality. That's why I have so many of them... I've always got another camera to use when the one I'm working with stops, for any reason at all. 🙂
G
Not all "electronic" cameras (meaning cameras with electronically timed shutters) are complex things with a bazillion systems like a Nikon F4 or F6. Nikon didn't repair the shutters for those even when they were new ... they replaced them and sent the old ones to be dismantled for parts for the production line parts supply, or otherwise recycled or trashed them. (I had an F6 ... lovely camera, but too complicated as well as too large and heavy for my taste. Sold it.) Same as for Leica with the R6.2 mechanical shutter ... they were all essentially unrepairable ... and only very rarely actually broke unless abused. (Yes, I have an R6.2 as well ... lovely camera ... a huge lot simpler than an F6 but still basically unrepairable past a certain threshold despite being "mechanical".)
I don't "trust" any camera for 100% reliability and eternal durability. None exist at that level of quality. That's why I have so many of them... I've always got another camera to use when the one I'm working with stops, for any reason at all. 🙂
G
shawn
Veteran
It is really easy to find D700s with 120,000+ shutter activations.
How many mechanical cameras have you put 3,000 rolls of film through?
And had the shutter timing still be just about dead on without service?
EDIT: Here is a D700 with 316,822 shots, equivalent of 8800 rolls of film.
https://usedphotopro.com/nikon-d700-121mp-digital-slr-camera-body-und-02-5910-5-2008891-2e47b563
Shawn
D
Deleted member 65559
Guest
shawn
Veteran
Sure, but for that to equal the D700 he would have had to shoot a roll and a half of film in that camera *every day* since that camera was built until he passed away.
Shawn
D
Deleted member 65559
Guest
Dogman
Veteran
This was posted on RFF at the time: I bought a D3 last year with over 600,000 shutter clicks--checked and confirmed on four separate testing websites. I returned it because the exposure compensation dial was inconsistent in operation.
Today I own 3 D700s and use them more than any other camera I own. I prefer them to my D800 and D810. Heavy beasts they are but I love handling them and the images are excellent.
I've only had mechanical parts fail on electronically controlled cameras. And only a couple of incidents of those since I've been using them, well over 20 years. But, admittedly, I'm very easy on my gear.
Today I own 3 D700s and use them more than any other camera I own. I prefer them to my D800 and D810. Heavy beasts they are but I love handling them and the images are excellent.
I've only had mechanical parts fail on electronically controlled cameras. And only a couple of incidents of those since I've been using them, well over 20 years. But, admittedly, I'm very easy on my gear.
shawn
Veteran
With those kind of numbers they got paid for them, so they were worth looking at to someone.
Winogrand never saw a large portion of his own work.
Shawn
Pál_K
Cameras. I has it.
Valid points made by everyone here.
In a way this is all amusing. Getting many decades of service out of any camera makes the purchase well worth it. Even this year I bought a new camera and never gave a moment’s thought about how long it might last.
In a way this is all amusing. Getting many decades of service out of any camera makes the purchase well worth it. Even this year I bought a new camera and never gave a moment’s thought about how long it might last.
D
Deleted member 65559
Guest
Nothing like a lively but essentially trivial discussion to while away some time on a saturday afternoon. It's been very hot here the last days, i'm heading to the darkroom to do some printing. Thanks Shawn 🙂
Godfrey
somewhat colored
That is:
- dependent upon who is pressing the shutter button
- totally irrelevant
G
bluesun267
Well-known
No I haven't been able to locate one, and my repair knowledge ends at programming chips. My statements about the Hexar RF are merely semi-informed conjecture but under the top plate I see handful of surface mount resistors, possibly a capacitor or two and a couple chips (there may be more deeper down).
One of them is a 2090FS (2 input serial in/parallel out driver) and here is the data sheet for it: http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2006243.pdf
It would be interesting to meet up with someone who could delve deeper and possibly even reprogram it. I'd love a multiple exposure option😛...but I have my screwmounts and Nikon F3 for that.
shawn
Veteran
There is probably a microcontroller deeper inside. That chip is probably doing the display and maybe the motor drive. Copying memory from one chip to another is a lot easier then copying from one chip, reverse engineering the code, changing it and the writing it back.
For multiple exposure try rewinding and then feed it again. The optical frame advance is supposed to be very accurate, might work.
Shawn
For multiple exposure try rewinding and then feed it again. The optical frame advance is supposed to be very accurate, might work.
Shawn
David Hughes
David Hughes
OK I can agree with most of what I read but I can't help thinking that all this is theory and in practice a lot of us are talking about secondhand cameras; simply because film cameras are no longer made.
With film cameras a lot depends on the owners; in a nutshell how they use the things, how often they use them and what their attitude to servicing is. I read of cameras that are now 20, 30 or 40 years old and have never needed servicing and - even though they are mechanical - I wonder what state they are inside.
And then there's the technician who repairs them, some seem to be amateurs doing it as a sideline and others have been trained overseas in the factory but there's a lot in between and what can we make of them?
Now add to the mix the cameras repaired not once or twice but (say) three times by the makers and those repaired after the owners read about it on the internet. And what do you get?
I see it as a lottery; so I don't and won't pay high prices and factor into it the cost of a service. This can pay off as after a while you know what you can pick up for pennies, get serviced and sell at a profit after putting a couple of films through it.
Regards, David
With film cameras a lot depends on the owners; in a nutshell how they use the things, how often they use them and what their attitude to servicing is. I read of cameras that are now 20, 30 or 40 years old and have never needed servicing and - even though they are mechanical - I wonder what state they are inside.
And then there's the technician who repairs them, some seem to be amateurs doing it as a sideline and others have been trained overseas in the factory but there's a lot in between and what can we make of them?
Now add to the mix the cameras repaired not once or twice but (say) three times by the makers and those repaired after the owners read about it on the internet. And what do you get?
I see it as a lottery; so I don't and won't pay high prices and factor into it the cost of a service. This can pay off as after a while you know what you can pick up for pennies, get serviced and sell at a profit after putting a couple of films through it.
Regards, David
Bolo Kukus
en vacances, en permanence
Noted. Tomioka, Kyocera, Cosina, Whoevercyna made them, the G lenses are superb. Nothing like them in rangefinderland. Leitz lenses are superb, G lenses are superb plus.
May I say again, my G1 camera bodies are still going strong after almost 30 years. One day I'll turn them on and they won't function. The same will apply to me. Que sera sera. Which says it all.
keytarjunkie
no longer addicted
Kind of off-topic, but this is an electronic rangefinder.
Supposedly it was very unreliable and got recalled.
Supposedly it was very unreliable and got recalled.
skucera
Well-known
There's been one mention of the Olympus XA, but it was rather dismissive. I've owned several over the years, starting in college in the early Eighties. I've never had one fail. My daughter has one that I gave her years ago, and it works reliably too. They've been very reliable for me. The optics have some vignetting, but they make beautiful photos just the same. Give one a try.
Scott
Scott
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