Movie Stock to 120 Rolls

[PMAS120]

I'd like to roll a can of movie stock onto 120 spools. Assuming I can track down rolls of new backing paper as well.. Will not be removing the remjet.

Does anyone know who might help with making this a semi-automated process? Know of any bulk 120 loaders or anyone who has already done this? Does anyone here load their own 120? If not, want to design and 3d print a loader with me?

I know of and supported the latest Cinestill 120 campaign but I'd rather come up with a way to roll a whole can myself... Its a heck of a lot cheaper per roll. I just need to semi-automate the process to make it worthwhile.

Any tips/help is greatly appreciated!

 

[sevo]

You are aware that motion picture stock is 35mm wide, perforated, and on a thick base? So no, that won't do! And 65mm film (the camera stock shot for "70mm" projection formats) is not that much more useful - it has been a special order item for more than two decades, and besides being thick base, it won't fit a 60mm spool either. You'd have to create a machine that cuts off 5mm. And you'd have perforation in the 56mm film gate of 120. While the specifications of 65/70mm MP camera systems vary, the usable film area generally is 52mm wide, with 10mm outside the perforation dedicated to sync and/or sound...

What Cinestill do is buy a master roll, wash off the remjet from the rear, and trim it to photographic sizes. As I said above, you can't do that with film off the perforated roll - and you can't buy a master roll for hand loading either, at least not unless you have a small fortune to waste and own a factory scale film cutter. Master rolls typically are 1-3m wide and have enough area for something between 10,000-100,000 rolls of film - even if they probably sell for a fraction of the price of confectioned film, we are still talking of five to six digit figures there...

 

[sevo]

Oh, and 120mm bulk loading is quite difficult - it really is a format devised to be packed with dedicated machinery of room size, feeding backing paper, film and adhesive strips from three different sides. And nobody sells any of the required materials in consumer quantities - so your issues would not end after sourcing film.

 

[PMAS120]

So I left out some details. The film I'm considering is Vision3 in 65mm size. I've read all the specs and I believe the entire film width is actually useable for imaging and I've also seen sample images... There is no separate "track" or other type of dedicated sound recording area. Someone please correct me if I've misunderstood this!

The perforations are each ~4.73mm wide. If I use a slitter and remove say up to half of the perforations on each side, I'll have some perforations in the top and bottom of each frame but I should get a clean ~57-58mm in height to use.. The resulting images would be something like 58x70mm then. I dont have any film to measure but thats what I get from the product sheet.

Losing 2-3mm in height is acceptable to me to use a much simpler and cheaper process than cutting from a master roll...

Also, my camera loads and advances frame by a fixed amount. As long as the film length and the backing paper length are the same as a commercial 120 role, I don't need to mess with frame markings.

Still trying to figure out how to "semi-automate" the hand rolling process...

 

[jojoman2]

what's the benefit of shooting movie film over standard color films? just curious... I'm a b&w shooter

 

[FujiLove]

what's the benefit of shooting movie film over standard color films? just curious... I'm a b&w shooter

The benefits that I can see:

1. Cost. 65mm film is about £15 per 100' / 30m in the UK, which makes it roughly £0.50 per film excluding the cost of the backing paper.

2. The ability to shoot more emulsions in this age of limited colour film choices, especially for medium format photographers.

3. The unique colour palette. Most people will be processing these films in C41 chemicals which causes a slightly cross processed look which some people like. You can end up with things like magenta tinged highlights and blue shadows at the same time. Obviously a huge pain if you want 'normal' colours, but it can look lovely.

4. A bit more fun? It could add an interesting twist to your photography to be using something that's out of the ordinary and relatively rare.

 

[FujiLove]

So I left out some details. The film I'm considering is Vision3 in 65mm size. I've read all the specs and I believe the entire film width is actually useable for imaging and I've also seen sample images... There is no separate "track" or other type of dedicated sound recording area. Someone please correct me if I've misunderstood this!

The perforations are each ~4.73mm wide. If I use a slitter and remove say up to half of the perforations on each side, I'll have some perforations in the top and bottom of each frame but I should get a clean ~57-58mm in height to use.. The resulting images would be something like 58x70mm then. I dont have any film to measure but thats what I get from the product sheet.

Losing 2-3mm in height is acceptable to me to use a much simpler and cheaper process than cutting from a master roll...

Also, my camera loads and advances frame by a fixed amount. As long as the film length and the backing paper length are the same as a commercial 120 role, I don't need to mess with frame markings.

Still trying to figure out how to "semi-automate" the hand rolling process...

This sounds like an excellent project

Assuming the film has already been cut to the correct width...

I reckon all you would need is a three spooled jig. Looking from the side (end of spools) you would have the roll of backing paper on the top spool and film on the bottom one (assuming the emulsion faces the inside of the roll). You would then pull both ends together and attach them to the third spool on the right which contained a 120 plastic reel. Ideally you would have a handle attached to this spool so you could count the number of turns you needed to wind on the correct length. You would have to try a few test rolls to get the length sorted. Laying the jig flat may be best (i.e. horizontal rolls, like plates, rather than vertically like car wheels).

You would need to try and keep the film and paper spools tensioned so you don't end up pulling loads of excess film off. You may be able to do that simply by holding one hand lightly against them as you turn the spooling handle.

I can imagine this would be quite tricky at first in the pitch black, but I reckon you would get the process nailed after ten or so wasted rolls. I'm basing this on my own experience of cutting and measuring colour paper in the dark. At least with this you shouldn't be risking losing fingers!

Do you know if it's possible to buy rolls of backing paper? If not, I guess you could simply save the ones from old rolls. They should be fine, as long as they are in perfect condition.

Have you already thought about how to cut the film to the correct width? I'm imagining the film moving from one reel to another and being fed through a gate in the middle with a couple of razor blades attached. The 'gate' could be something salvaged from an old film editor. It would need to be super clean and smooth to prevent scratches, but apart from that, I can't see any big issues.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

 

[sevo]

Also, my camera loads and advances frame by a fixed amount. As long as the film length and the backing paper length are the same as a commercial 120 role, I don't need to mess with frame markings.

You sort of do, as the film and backing paper have no common start. You would have to spool the trailer length of backing paper to the destination spool, slip the film into the backing at the appropriate end point (without attaching it there!), and spool on to the start of the film, tape that to the backing paper, and continue to wind the leader to the spool. It might actually be easier to spool 220 by hand, as you only have to stick on the leader and trailer lengths of paper to the film rather than try to create a sandwich on the fly.

 

[jb89]

The benefits that I can see:

1. Cost. 65mm film is about £15 per 100' / 30m in the UK, which makes it roughly £0.50 per film excluding the cost of the backing paper.

Would love to know where you are getting this price?
I am a London based Cinematographer and we struggle to get 35mm for under £100 for 400ft rolls...unless clearance on expired etc.
I havent shot 65 in my career the main reason having been the price of stock in the past...... if what your saying is true please point me in the right direction so that I can buy LOTS of it!

 

[mainoo]

Just wondering if the OP got anywhere with his/her project. I am interested in the same and i know that others are doing it (the end results are on ebay at $8 a roll).

I imagine that aside from the mechanics of handrolling other impediments might include ensuring a dust free environment. By the way there's a useful guide available here

 

[znapper]

Isn't this thread what you are looking for?

 

[tonyc]

Here are shome shots from this summer, using Kodak Vision III 250D, shot on Fuji GS645 & GS645s.
As the film is double perf, you do get some spocket edges, which I have cropped in the scan.

I bought a film slitter and load onto 120 rolls with paper backs from previous films.
It is not actually that difficult, so long as you have a darkroom.
Processing was done using ECN-2 colour developer chemicals, made according to Kodaks published formula.
Bleach and Fix from Fujicolour Press kit.

Isn't this thread what you are looking for?

No quite, that thread is for 70mm rollfilm for Hasselblad backs.
I think the OP is asking about 65mm movie stock used in the motion picture industry.

 

[Steve M.]

The shots that tonyc posted above have a wonderful look to them.