Musings: M10-R with Visoflex or M-EV1?

[Archiver]

This is not a serious question because I don't have it in the budget right now, BUT, I'm thinking about the M10-R vs the M-EV1.

This question has arisen because as much as I enjoy the SL2-S after a year, I've had to admit that I prefer the size, shape and weight of M bodies for everyday carry. Not to mention, some of my favourite M lenses like the Biogon 21mm f2.8 are beautiful on the M9 but barely acceptable on the SL2-S, and the smaller M lenses make for a more carryable camera, anyway.

But my eyesight isn't what it once was, and the EVF of the SL2-S is a very welcome solution to that problem.

On one hand, a RF-based M like the M10-R would allow for RF focusing in good light, and EVF focusing in poor light. On the other, the M-EV1 has the M11 sensor and all the rest of the M11's improvements, not to mention a better EVF than the Visoflex.

Thoughts?

 

[Freakscene]

Post in thread 'Owners: M10R vs M11 - Pros and Cons'

Jun 24, 2024

M11:
Pro
Better battery life
Better metering\highlight weighted metering
More responsive live view and viso
More megapickles (might also be a con if you don’t need them)
Finally no primitive detachable base
Better with adapted/uncoded lenses
Edit: Native usb-c charger
Edit: more accurate image metadata
Another edit: faster refresh rate and better Visoflex
Another another edit: in-camera charging lets you connect a powerbank as you go
About 120g lighter

Con
Slower if not in live view (shutter closes and opens again even without live view)
Locks up
Heat sensitive
Primitive built in storage...

• Freakscene

• 

Do you generally need to work quickly? Neither are super fast cameras, but the M10-R using the rangefinder is a lot faster than any M11. Leica needs to figure out a proper mirrorless architecture where the shutter doesn’t need to close then open again to take a shot.

The M-EV1 has a lot of problems with the evf implementation. It not only does not have my much hoped for eye focus with zooming, but it doesn’t even zoom fast enough to really use very functionally. You have an SL series camera, don’t you?

 

[Archiver]

@Freakscene Yes, I've had the SL2-S for a year, and as much as I love it as a camera, it's not entirely amenable to being an every day carry.

Speed can be important, which means the RF mechanism will still be useful in good light. I've had almost a year of working with manual focus on the SL2-S and I still haven't got it near the speed and accuracy of with my M9. Then again, the M9 is almost second nature to me after 15 years, so there's that.

That's useful information about the EV1's zoom and shutter operation, I didn't know this at all. So it looks like my imaginary decision about M10-R vs M-EV1 is more one-sided than I thought.

 

[boojum]

A low cost, lower quality solution to this can be the M240. It also uses a hot shoe add-on electronic viewfinder solving the difficulties with an RF. Yes it is slower and the live view image is not as good as the M-10. But it costs a lot less and is actually the red-headed stepchild of the M body lineup. It takes good pictures if you can be pleased despite the shortcomings. I like mine and find the M-10 high priced compared to what else is available new. YMMV

 

[Archiver]

A low cost, lower quality solution to this can be the M240. It also uses a hot shoe add-on electronic viewfinder solving the difficulties with an RF. Yes it is slower and the live view image is not as good as the M-10. But it costs a lot less and is actually the red-headed stepchild of the M body lineup. It takes good pictures if you can be pleased despite the shortcomings. I like mine and find the M-10 high priced compared to what else is available new. YMMV

This is not a bad suggestion at all, and one that I've contemplated for a while. My concern is the sparseness of battery availability, about which there is a very long thread right here, hahaha.

I'm also considering what could be a M body which will be as future proof as possible, giving the longest usage life over time. A M10-R seems to fit the bill, coming as the best of the M10 generation but lacking the downsides of the M11 that @Freakscene has pointed out. Intersecting with the 'what gear is giving you GAS right now' thread, a black paint M10-R is right up there.

 

[brusby]

Neither. Sorry 🙂. I don't find the SL series significantly bigger or more unwieldy than any M with external viewfinder. In fact, just the opposite. I'd pick SL over M with viewfinder almost every time.

For portable carry, give me an M9 with small 35, 50 or sometimes 90. But for wides, longer lenses and where critical focus and/or framing are important, it's so nice to have the SL series.

 

[boojum]

This is not a bad suggestion at all, and one that I've contemplated for a while. My concern is the sparseness of battery availability, about which there is a very long thread right here, hahaha.

I'm also considering what could be a M body which will be as future proof as possible, giving the longest usage life over time. A M10-R seems to fit the bill, coming as the best of the M10 generation but lacking the downsides of the M11 that @Freakscene has pointed out. Intersecting with the 'what gear is giving you GAS right now' thread, a black paint M10-R is right up there.

I have two batteries and one on order at B&H. Leica marketing seems to think artificial shortages enhance their business.

 

[Godfrey]

This is not a bad suggestion at all, and one that I've contemplated for a while. My concern is the sparseness of battery availability, about which there is a very long thread right here, hahaha.

I'm also considering what could be a M body which will be as future proof as possible, giving the longest usage life over time. A M10-R seems to fit the bill, coming as the best of the M10 generation but lacking the downsides of the M11 that @Freakscene has pointed out. Intersecting with the 'what gear is giving you GAS right now' thread, a black paint M10-R is right up there.

I've got M10-R and M10 Monochrom. And the Visoflex 020 EVF viewfinder. Far as I'm concerned, I don't need anything more in Leica M gear. I can't see these being viable for less than the next decade, with the always presumption that the batteries hang on. I have two batteries for each camera, and I rarely rarely even consume one's power in a week's worth of shooting.

I suspect that I'll someday try an M EV1 ... I have no particular need for speed and the simple viewfinder is fine by me, don't need any fancy focusing aids. But I'm in no rush.

G

 

[Archiver]

Neither. Sorry 🙂. I don't find the SL series significantly bigger or more unwieldy than any M with external viewfinder. In fact, just the opposite. I'd pick SL over M with viewfinder almost every time.

For portable carry, give me an M9 with small 35, 50 or sometimes 90. But for wides, longer lenses and where critical focus and/or framing are important, it's so nice to have the SL series.

If only the Biogon 21/2.8 worked well on the SL2-S. I've used that combo a fair bit and it just doesn't match the output of the M9. I'll work with that combo again just to make sure I'm not missing something, but my previous results were not promising.

 

[Freakscene]

If only the Biogon 21/2.8 worked well on the SL2-S. I've used that combo a fair bit and it just doesn't match the output of the M9. I'll work with that combo again just to make sure I'm not missing something, but my previous results were not promising.

The Super-APO-SUMMICRON-SL 21mm is phenomenal. I know it’s big and pricey, but just saying . . .

 

[Godfrey]

If only the Biogon 21/2.8 worked well on the SL2-S. I've used that combo a fair bit and it just doesn't match the output of the M9. I'll work with that combo again just to make sure I'm not missing something, but my previous results were not promising.

Well, sometimes it's just better to go with lenses designed for the particular camera. This is more usually true with ultra-wide lenses, like a 21mm. I'd rent the Super-APO-Summicron-SL 21 f/2 ASPH and see how that compares to the Biogon 21mm ... It's a lot more expensive, but it's the one designed to work with the L-mount series bodies to best effect.

I remember when I had the SL typ 601 ... Not all my M-mount lenses worked to best effect on it, some things were better accomplished with the L-mount equivalent.

G

 

[brusby]

If only the Biogon 21/2.8 worked well on the SL2-S. I've used that combo a fair bit and it just doesn't match the output of the M9. I'll work with that combo again just to make sure I'm not missing something, but my previous results were not promising.

Interesting. What issues are you having?

 

[ellisson]

Of all Leica's L-mount lenses for their SL cameras, that Super-APO-summicron-SL 21mm remains hardest to find and most expensive on the used market. Owners hold on to these for their excellence.

Weight of a leica M10 with battery and EVF is 1.7 lbs compared to 2 lbs for an SL-2 with battery. The Zeiss 21/2.8 Biogen ZM lens is about .67 lbs compared to the Leica Super-APO-summicron 21 SL lens weighing in at 1.7 lbs, (add another 50 g with hood). And the SL kit is larger, especially the lenses. So, you are carrying about 2.4 lbs with the M10/Zeiss 21mm lens set-up (similar for M11) compared to 3.7 lbs with the SL-2/SL21mm one lens set up. Depending on your back and distance to cover, that's not trivial. Add in another lens or two and the weight difference is much greater. The lenses make up more of the difference. Going with lighter weight L mount alliance lenses can help off-set the difference, but that Leica Super-apo-summicron-SL 21mm lens is hard to beat among other 21mm L-mount lenses. And of course, shooting M lenses on the SL cameras as described below is an even greater weight saving solution.

 

[brusby]

I can't imagine using the SL lenses. They seem ridiculously big and heavy. So counter to the original spirit of Leica cameras and lenses. I know the image quality is very nice, but so many smaller, lighter lenses are capable of wonderful image quality too. I just don't see the need.

I use mostly small, lightweight Leica, Canon, Nikkor and Zeiss M and LTM lenses with my SL series cameras. The increased size and weight of the SL body is almost imperceptible to me, particularly when I have several lenses packed in the bag, and the benefits far outweigh any negatives.

 

[Out to Lunch]

I can't imagine using the SL lenses. They seem ridiculously big and heavy.

Idem ditto.

I'm using the much lighter and more compact Sigma Contemporary L mount lenses with the SL2S. Excellent glass.

 

[Archiver]

Interesting. What issues are you having?

On the M9, the Biogon 21 is bitingly sharp from edge to edge, and very high contrast. On the SL2-S, the centre is decently sharp, but the outer thirds are oddly soft, and the images don't have the contrast I expect from the M9.

I'll take it out to shoot again in the coming weeks, but I'm not optimistic about it. The Distagon 35 and Summicron 50 are excellent on the SL2-S, fortunately. Even the very small Nokton 35/1.4 is decent on the 2S, although I haven't used that enough to make a solid opinion.

I'm wondering if the adapter is an issue. It's an Urth adapter that has a fair bit of play in the M lens mount, perhaps that is making a difference.

 

[Archiver]

Of all Leica's L-mount lenses for their SL cameras, that Super-APO-summicron-SL 21mm remains hardest to find and most expensive on the used market. Owners hold on to these for their excellence.

Weight of a leica M10 with battery and EVF is 1.7 lbs compared to 2 lbs for an SL-2 with battery. The Zeiss 21/2.8 Biogen ZM lens is about .67 lbs compared to the Leica Super-APO-summicron 21 SL lens weighing in at 1.7 lbs, (add another 50 g with hood). And the SL kit is larger, especially the lenses. So, you are carrying about 2.4 lbs with the M10/Zeiss 21mm lens set-up (similar for M11) compared to 3.7 lbs with the SL-2/SL21mm one lens set up. Depending on your back and distance to cover, that's not trivial. Add in another lens or two and the weight difference is much greater. The lenses make up more of the difference. Going with lighter weight L mount alliance lenses can help off-set the difference, but that Leica Super-apo-summicron-SL 21mm lens is hard to beat among other 21mm L-mount lenses. And of course, shooting M lenses on the SL cameras as described below is an even greater weight saving solution.

Bret Curry, a photographer and cinematographer, uses a SL3 along with an adapted Summilux M 28 as a walkaround, and seems to get fantastic results. As a Summilux 28 isn't in today's budget, I'm wondering if the Voigtlander Nokton 28/1.5 might be a decent alternative if I'm committed to using the 2S as a walkaround camera.

https://www.instagram.com/bretcurry/

Ditto for the Voigtlander Skopar 21/3.5, which seems to be optimized for digital sensors. It's not f2.8 but the images seem to be very good.

 

[Freakscene]

Bret Curry, a photographer and cinematographer, uses a SL3 along with an adapted Summilux M 28 as a walkaround, and seems to get fantastic results. As a Summilux 28 isn't in today's budget, I'm wondering if the Voigtlander Nokton 28/1.5 might be a decent alternative if I'm committed to using the 2S as a walkaround camera.

https://www.instagram.com/bretcurry/

Ditto for the Voigtlander Skopar 21/3.5, which seems to be optimized for digital sensors. It's not f2.8 but the images seem to be very good.

The Voigtländer Nokton 28mm f1.5 is a very good performer. The 28 Summilux is the best lens I own, with an almost disturbingly perfect capacity to place tones and separate near tones. It has some moustache distortion, but less than any fast 28.



No need for the clarity slider with the Summilux; just choose your filter for monochrome or white balance for colour and get your exposure where you want it.

 

[trix4ever]

Bret Curry, a photographer and cinematographer, uses a SL3 along with an adapted Summilux M 28 as a walkaround, and seems to get fantastic results. As a Summilux 28 isn't in today's budget, I'm wondering if the Voigtlander Nokton 28/1.5 might be a decent alternative if I'm committed to using the 2S as a walkaround camera.

https://www.instagram.com/bretcurry/

Ditto for the Voigtlander Skopar 21/3.5, which seems to be optimized for digital sensors. It's not f2.8 but the images seem to be very good.

I can confirm the 21/3.5 Skopar works on any sensor, Fred Miranda found it pretty much as good on Sony as Leica M, very unusual for a 21mm but I can confirm it is still very good on my SL2-S. My old 21/1.8 Ultron worked well on the SL but seemed heavy and clumsy to me so it’s on Ebay at the minute.
The 28/1.5 Nokton is wonderful on my M240 but surprisingly ordinary on the SL and SL2-S, you need to stop it down an extra 2 stops on the SL's to get a similar quality across the frame. Even then it seems to lack the sparkle it has on rangefinder Leicas. I know that's not very technical but it says what I mean.
I have the Sigma 24mm f3.5 dg dn as a small walkabout lens on the SL, and a Sigma 20mm f1.4 for night work on my SL2-S, they are both amazingly sharp on the SL's.
For some reason neither Sigma or Panasonic are making 28mm lenses for the L-mount (except for the huge and ancient 28/1.4 Sigma which I don't reckon counts).
Strange to me that Sigma make 3x21mm and 3x24mm L-mount lenses and not one 28mm dg dn. An f2.8 pancake and a modern f1.4 would do well.

 

[Godfrey]

Bret Curry, a photographer and cinematographer, uses a SL3 along with an adapted Summilux M 28 as a walkaround, and seems to get fantastic results. As a Summilux 28 isn't in today's budget, I'm wondering if the Voigtlander Nokton 28/1.5 might be a decent alternative if I'm committed to using the 2S as a walkaround camera.

https://www.instagram.com/bretcurry/

Ditto for the Voigtlander Skopar 21/3.5, which seems to be optimized for digital sensors. It's not f2.8 but the images seem to be very good.

I have no experience with either the Summilux-M 28 or the Nokton 28/1.5. My favorite 28mm lens for M bodies is the Summaron-M 28mm f/5.6, and one down from that, the Color-Skopar 28mm f/3.5 (an LTM lens, long discontinued). The latter is not at its best on digital sensors, where the Summaron-M is superbly well tuned for the modern M cameras yet retains the magic of its original 1950s formulation.

The Voigtländer Color-Skopar 21mm f/3.5 is a nicely retuned version of the older 21mm f/4, and is now a superb performer on the digital sensor. I've had one of these since 2022 and have used it quite a lot on both the M10-R and M10 Monochrom: it produces excellent results.

G