mikemyers
Established
I've been involved in photography since the 1950's, and started out (as many people did) with rangefinder cameras. When the Nikon F revolutionized the photography world, I was one of those who charged full speed into the SLR world, leaving my old rangefinder gear behind to gather dust. I sold some of it, but much of it just sat around in boxes, including most of my Leica gear.
Over the past few years, I've gone from trying to digitize my film images, to trying to find a digital camera that could do what my film cameras did. I concentrated completely on Nikon, as their cameras fit my hand and my way of doing things. My previous attempts at digital using other brands were a failure, as I could never get the cameras to do what I wanted. The first camera that came close was the Nikon D2h, which I ordered sight-unseen the day it was announced as being available on the B&H website.
Since then, my D2h has been replaced by a D2x, and I added a D3 which is probably the finest camera I've ever owned in my life. There's nothing I need to do that the D3 doesn't excel at, and it's the single biggest improvement to my photo work in ages. I'm not sure if I'll ever end up buying a replacement for it, as there's nothing I want it to do that it doesn't already do perfectly! I still have my old D2x, which I take with me on trips across Asia, and while it lacks a few of the features of the D3, it's more than enough for what I want to do overseas.
Over the past several years, as the Nikons got better and better, the percentage of my photos that were "keepers" constantly increased. While I used to throw out a large percentage of my shots, the new gear resulted in very few "bad" photos, so I was left to pick through my images for those I enjoyed the most. This got harder and harder, but that's a good thing. Most of these photos were shot on assignment, and the editors I work for got happier and happier as time went on.
It's hard to describe exactly what I'm trying to say here, but during all this time, something seemed to be lacking in my photography. The new cameras made it almost a sure thing that whenever I pressed the button, I'd get a "good" image, but a lot of the fun and the challenge from when I started out seemed to be missing. I had nothing but good memories of my Contax, Nikon, and Leica rangefinder cameras, and the work I had to go through to get good images. There's also the fact that those cameras were so small and light, I always had one with me, while the newer Nikon gear was getting so big and heavy that I only carried it with me when I had something already in mind to photograph. I started getting some of the P&S cameras that fit in ones pocket, mostly to always have a camera with me, but I was never really happy with the images. With enough work, and attention, I found I could get quite nice images from a P&S, but they just didn't look like what I wanted. I really wanted the image quality, and the depth of field, and the perspective that I used to get from my small 35mm cameras from long ago.
About two years ago, I got interested in the Leica M8. To me, it looked like Leica took an M-series film camera, and put a digital back on it. That seemed to be exactly what I wanted, but the price was pretty steep, and I wasn't sure if I just wanted one for nostalgia reasons, or if it would really do anything for my photography. After reading about it on and off for over a year, about four months ago while I was in Asia, I started seriously thinking about buying one.
The internet proved to be a goldmine of opinions on the M8. There were those who loved it, and those who hated it, and those who saw it as an overpriced toy designed for the very rich to show off. I read about all the good features, and how it helped photographers do what they were after, and also about all the "mistakes" in the design, those things that some people felt made it a miserable choice for a camera.
It's funny – as I read these things, I was bothered by some, but others I saw as an advantage. The lack of a built-in IR filter (meaning I'd need IR filters on my lenses) to me was a big plus, as that means I could once again play with IR photography, something I used to enjoy. The lack of a full-frame sensor bothered me a lot, but with only a 1.3 factor, it's close enough to full-frame that I decided it would work for me. As to lenses, I already had a nice collection from long ago, but while I probably can't afford any of the new Leitz lenses, Voigtlander now makes M-mount lenses at very reasonable prices that I can easily afford. The bottom line is the more I read about the M8, the more I wanted one.
I mostly planned on buying a used M8, and thought I had agreed to a deal on one with someone I could meet at Los Angeles airport on my way back to Miami. Still, a part of me was kicking myself in the rear, reminding me that I should try to never buy electronic gear without a warranty, and that if I get an M8 rather than the newer M8.2, I would be missing out on all the improvements that Leica had made since introducing the camera. I wasn't very unhappy with the person I was buying the used M8 from when he wrote me to tell me he had already sold the camera to someone in Japan.
So, I contacted Jody at Robert's Imaging in California, and told them I'd like to go ahead with getting a new M8.2. I also asked them to check into the possibility of a demo camera, which might help save me some money. Nick at Robert's did just that, and helped me find what looks to me to be a brand new M8.2 with everything in the box. It's got the smaller charger I wanted, and all the accessories. The only downside is it comes with a 1-year warranty, rather than a 2-year warranty, but as I see it, if anything is going to go wrong, it's likely to happen in the first few months. It cost more than the M8, but I figured with all the improvements, it was worth it (even though a M9 might be coming out soon). Nick arranged everything so the camera would arrive right after I got back to the USA.
I got the camera three days after I got back to the US, put on my old 35mm Summilux f/1.4 lens, and headed off on assignment the following day, taking both the Leica and my D3.
First impressions on the M8 are that it would have been nice to have a "quick start guide" as Nikon provides - just a simple one-page user guide with a few steps, after which you're taking photos. Without that, I read through the manual, which I found rather confusing, but then I usually find manuals confusing on first reading. The procedure starts with installing the neckstrap, and all there was, was photos. No written description. I'm still not completely sure as to how this is supposed to end up, but I think I got it right. I read the manual twice, and had a rough idea of some things, but when I picked the camera up to shoot the first pictures, I didn't really know where to start.
Not knowing very much, I turned the shutter speed dial to "S" (snapshot) which was supposed to let the camera do most of the work of getting the settings correct. Focusing was a breeze, as fast and easy as on my film cameras from a lifetime ago. I set the aperture to something that seemed reasonable, and sure enough, all the images seemed to be coming out correctly exposed. I found out later that I was shooting in 'jpg' mode, not 'raw' mode, but for learning the camera this was fine. White balance was usually good, but a few of the images looked a little bit off. As to the pictures, the main thing, the camera allowed me to get wonderful "people photos" just like I did ages ago. Since that was my main objective in getting the Leica, I'm quite happy with it.
It's now a few weeks after I received the camera. Now that I'm getting a little more used to it, I like the simplified menu system, but several things were not very obvious until I read and re-read, and re-re-read the manual. For example, while I had the camera in "S" mode I puzzled over where many of the settings were. I couldn't find where or how to change from JPG to RAW, or image size, or many other things I just wanted to look at. Eventually I found that in S-mode, these settings are not available. If I were designing the software, I'd have left them available in the menu choices, but "grayed out".
I'll probably have more to say about the menu choices later, but right now I think this was nicely done. It's not at all like the D3 where I've got so many choices about everything, it's like programming a computer. If you take the time to read up on things, and then practice for an hour or so, the menu seems quite simple and easy to use.
Another point that I thought would bother me was the shutter sound. I remember how quiet my M2 and M3 cameras were, and how many modern cameras are so loud they can bother people. The M8.2 is quieter than I expected – no complaints whatever. I'm perfectly happy with it. I know there is a setting that will make it even quieter, but I haven't seen any need to do so yet.
I'm certainly still in the learning process. I'm very pleased with the camera, and while there things I'd rather have slightly different, it's fine for me. I wish it had a D3 sensor, full-frame, and perhaps with the resolution of the D3x sensor. That would be nice, but I'm happy with the M8.2 just the way it is. If Leica does come out with an M9 with full-frame sensor, maybe at some point in the future I'll upgrade, but I'm not sure there will be any need to. The biggest improvements the M9 might provide for me are full-frame sensor, less noise at high ISO settings, and more resolution. As for resolution, I've found that with my D3 I'm often shooting in the "medium" size setting, as it's more than enough for me. That means the M8 is already plenty good for my needs. Once I get a wider wide-angle lens I'll be all set, and the smaller sensor on the M8 won't matter as much. I haven't yet shot anything at high ISO settings, so I don't know how much of a problem this is going to be, if any. If they "fix" the M9 so that you don't need IR filters for the lenses, that will also mean I can't shoot IR photos with it, which I wouldn't like.
If someone asked me tomorrow which camera to buy, the Nikon D3 or the Leica M8.2, there's no question in my mind - I would suggest the D3. However, the D3 isn't a substitute for the M8 any more than the M8 could substitute for the D3 - they each have their good points. For a camera in this size range (35mm film size) the D3 is probably the best camera on the market right now. On the other hand, the Leica is smaller, lighter, quieter, less intrusive, and with a little more effort on the part of the photographer, just as capable of producing wonderful images. It's also a lot more satisfying to use!
Mike Myers
Over the past few years, I've gone from trying to digitize my film images, to trying to find a digital camera that could do what my film cameras did. I concentrated completely on Nikon, as their cameras fit my hand and my way of doing things. My previous attempts at digital using other brands were a failure, as I could never get the cameras to do what I wanted. The first camera that came close was the Nikon D2h, which I ordered sight-unseen the day it was announced as being available on the B&H website.
Since then, my D2h has been replaced by a D2x, and I added a D3 which is probably the finest camera I've ever owned in my life. There's nothing I need to do that the D3 doesn't excel at, and it's the single biggest improvement to my photo work in ages. I'm not sure if I'll ever end up buying a replacement for it, as there's nothing I want it to do that it doesn't already do perfectly! I still have my old D2x, which I take with me on trips across Asia, and while it lacks a few of the features of the D3, it's more than enough for what I want to do overseas.
Over the past several years, as the Nikons got better and better, the percentage of my photos that were "keepers" constantly increased. While I used to throw out a large percentage of my shots, the new gear resulted in very few "bad" photos, so I was left to pick through my images for those I enjoyed the most. This got harder and harder, but that's a good thing. Most of these photos were shot on assignment, and the editors I work for got happier and happier as time went on.
It's hard to describe exactly what I'm trying to say here, but during all this time, something seemed to be lacking in my photography. The new cameras made it almost a sure thing that whenever I pressed the button, I'd get a "good" image, but a lot of the fun and the challenge from when I started out seemed to be missing. I had nothing but good memories of my Contax, Nikon, and Leica rangefinder cameras, and the work I had to go through to get good images. There's also the fact that those cameras were so small and light, I always had one with me, while the newer Nikon gear was getting so big and heavy that I only carried it with me when I had something already in mind to photograph. I started getting some of the P&S cameras that fit in ones pocket, mostly to always have a camera with me, but I was never really happy with the images. With enough work, and attention, I found I could get quite nice images from a P&S, but they just didn't look like what I wanted. I really wanted the image quality, and the depth of field, and the perspective that I used to get from my small 35mm cameras from long ago.
About two years ago, I got interested in the Leica M8. To me, it looked like Leica took an M-series film camera, and put a digital back on it. That seemed to be exactly what I wanted, but the price was pretty steep, and I wasn't sure if I just wanted one for nostalgia reasons, or if it would really do anything for my photography. After reading about it on and off for over a year, about four months ago while I was in Asia, I started seriously thinking about buying one.
The internet proved to be a goldmine of opinions on the M8. There were those who loved it, and those who hated it, and those who saw it as an overpriced toy designed for the very rich to show off. I read about all the good features, and how it helped photographers do what they were after, and also about all the "mistakes" in the design, those things that some people felt made it a miserable choice for a camera.
It's funny – as I read these things, I was bothered by some, but others I saw as an advantage. The lack of a built-in IR filter (meaning I'd need IR filters on my lenses) to me was a big plus, as that means I could once again play with IR photography, something I used to enjoy. The lack of a full-frame sensor bothered me a lot, but with only a 1.3 factor, it's close enough to full-frame that I decided it would work for me. As to lenses, I already had a nice collection from long ago, but while I probably can't afford any of the new Leitz lenses, Voigtlander now makes M-mount lenses at very reasonable prices that I can easily afford. The bottom line is the more I read about the M8, the more I wanted one.
I mostly planned on buying a used M8, and thought I had agreed to a deal on one with someone I could meet at Los Angeles airport on my way back to Miami. Still, a part of me was kicking myself in the rear, reminding me that I should try to never buy electronic gear without a warranty, and that if I get an M8 rather than the newer M8.2, I would be missing out on all the improvements that Leica had made since introducing the camera. I wasn't very unhappy with the person I was buying the used M8 from when he wrote me to tell me he had already sold the camera to someone in Japan.
So, I contacted Jody at Robert's Imaging in California, and told them I'd like to go ahead with getting a new M8.2. I also asked them to check into the possibility of a demo camera, which might help save me some money. Nick at Robert's did just that, and helped me find what looks to me to be a brand new M8.2 with everything in the box. It's got the smaller charger I wanted, and all the accessories. The only downside is it comes with a 1-year warranty, rather than a 2-year warranty, but as I see it, if anything is going to go wrong, it's likely to happen in the first few months. It cost more than the M8, but I figured with all the improvements, it was worth it (even though a M9 might be coming out soon). Nick arranged everything so the camera would arrive right after I got back to the USA.
I got the camera three days after I got back to the US, put on my old 35mm Summilux f/1.4 lens, and headed off on assignment the following day, taking both the Leica and my D3.
First impressions on the M8 are that it would have been nice to have a "quick start guide" as Nikon provides - just a simple one-page user guide with a few steps, after which you're taking photos. Without that, I read through the manual, which I found rather confusing, but then I usually find manuals confusing on first reading. The procedure starts with installing the neckstrap, and all there was, was photos. No written description. I'm still not completely sure as to how this is supposed to end up, but I think I got it right. I read the manual twice, and had a rough idea of some things, but when I picked the camera up to shoot the first pictures, I didn't really know where to start.
Not knowing very much, I turned the shutter speed dial to "S" (snapshot) which was supposed to let the camera do most of the work of getting the settings correct. Focusing was a breeze, as fast and easy as on my film cameras from a lifetime ago. I set the aperture to something that seemed reasonable, and sure enough, all the images seemed to be coming out correctly exposed. I found out later that I was shooting in 'jpg' mode, not 'raw' mode, but for learning the camera this was fine. White balance was usually good, but a few of the images looked a little bit off. As to the pictures, the main thing, the camera allowed me to get wonderful "people photos" just like I did ages ago. Since that was my main objective in getting the Leica, I'm quite happy with it.
It's now a few weeks after I received the camera. Now that I'm getting a little more used to it, I like the simplified menu system, but several things were not very obvious until I read and re-read, and re-re-read the manual. For example, while I had the camera in "S" mode I puzzled over where many of the settings were. I couldn't find where or how to change from JPG to RAW, or image size, or many other things I just wanted to look at. Eventually I found that in S-mode, these settings are not available. If I were designing the software, I'd have left them available in the menu choices, but "grayed out".
I'll probably have more to say about the menu choices later, but right now I think this was nicely done. It's not at all like the D3 where I've got so many choices about everything, it's like programming a computer. If you take the time to read up on things, and then practice for an hour or so, the menu seems quite simple and easy to use.
Another point that I thought would bother me was the shutter sound. I remember how quiet my M2 and M3 cameras were, and how many modern cameras are so loud they can bother people. The M8.2 is quieter than I expected – no complaints whatever. I'm perfectly happy with it. I know there is a setting that will make it even quieter, but I haven't seen any need to do so yet.
I'm certainly still in the learning process. I'm very pleased with the camera, and while there things I'd rather have slightly different, it's fine for me. I wish it had a D3 sensor, full-frame, and perhaps with the resolution of the D3x sensor. That would be nice, but I'm happy with the M8.2 just the way it is. If Leica does come out with an M9 with full-frame sensor, maybe at some point in the future I'll upgrade, but I'm not sure there will be any need to. The biggest improvements the M9 might provide for me are full-frame sensor, less noise at high ISO settings, and more resolution. As for resolution, I've found that with my D3 I'm often shooting in the "medium" size setting, as it's more than enough for me. That means the M8 is already plenty good for my needs. Once I get a wider wide-angle lens I'll be all set, and the smaller sensor on the M8 won't matter as much. I haven't yet shot anything at high ISO settings, so I don't know how much of a problem this is going to be, if any. If they "fix" the M9 so that you don't need IR filters for the lenses, that will also mean I can't shoot IR photos with it, which I wouldn't like.
If someone asked me tomorrow which camera to buy, the Nikon D3 or the Leica M8.2, there's no question in my mind - I would suggest the D3. However, the D3 isn't a substitute for the M8 any more than the M8 could substitute for the D3 - they each have their good points. For a camera in this size range (35mm film size) the D3 is probably the best camera on the market right now. On the other hand, the Leica is smaller, lighter, quieter, less intrusive, and with a little more effort on the part of the photographer, just as capable of producing wonderful images. It's also a lot more satisfying to use!
Mike Myers
mikemyers
Established
[FONT="]I should add that the camera I bought is what Leica calls a "Code U product". A Leica rep described them as cameras which sit on tables at PMA. Customers who buy them are typically very happy. The warranty on Code U is 12 months, not 24. The pricing unit-to-unit varies. That's what I bought, with the help of Nick at Robert's Imaging. The camera, and everything with it all looked brand new and untouched. Robert's Imaging has now helped me out several times in buying something special.[/FONT]
leicashot
Well-known
quick start quide?
quick start quide?
Honestly, if you've been shooting a D3 and have used M cameras for many years, I don't see the need for a quick start guide....would it really have helped someone like you, given your experience?
quick start quide?
Honestly, if you've been shooting a D3 and have used M cameras for many years, I don't see the need for a quick start guide....would it really have helped someone like you, given your experience?
mikemyers
Established
It certainly would have. Yes, I know the D3, and yes, I know photography, but when I pick up any new camera for the first time, it's not always that clear how to do the things I want. There's a reason why Nikon and Canon and others provide something like that, just to help get you started.
If you think I'm wrong, and you normally use a Nikon, pick up a Canon DSLR and see how "obvious" things are. I did, and was completely lost for a few hours. ...or if you normally shoot Canon, see how well you understand a Nikon when you first pick it up.
The Leica took me an hour or so to figure out what does what, mostly involving the menu system. After a while, it all started to make sense. (That's partly because I'm used to the way Nikon does things.)
(Once you know what's what, and how to do things, the quick-start guide is pretty much useless, but when you're first starting out, it's a big help.)
If you think I'm wrong, and you normally use a Nikon, pick up a Canon DSLR and see how "obvious" things are. I did, and was completely lost for a few hours. ...or if you normally shoot Canon, see how well you understand a Nikon when you first pick it up.
The Leica took me an hour or so to figure out what does what, mostly involving the menu system. After a while, it all started to make sense. (That's partly because I'm used to the way Nikon does things.)
(Once you know what's what, and how to do things, the quick-start guide is pretty much useless, but when you're first starting out, it's a big help.)
leicashot
Well-known
Sorry, but it just sounded odd that you had trouble working out the Leica M8 after using a Nikon D3 and Leica M's over the years. The M8 is the easiest camera to work out. Besides the rangefinder functions, which are the same as your old Leica's, the menu is simple, straigh forward and only take a couple of minutes to setup, without a manual, compared to about 20 minutes with the D3, for an experienced user.
I guess everyone's perception of simple differs somewhat :bang:
I guess everyone's perception of simple differs somewhat :bang:
MichaelHarris
Well-known
Welcome to Rangefinders Mike and I agree, I also like a quick-start guide. Whether I need it or not it's nice to have one to get acquainted with features I may have not seen.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Mike,
It's a gorgeous camera, isn't it? And believe me, the apparently tiny changes compared with the M8 make a disproportionate difference.
When it comes to the manuals, though, I'm with Fred. I used to write computer software manuals (for ICL) and my standard reply to anyone who said, "It's not that simple" was "Then go away and redesign it until it is."
I don't think I bothered to read the manual of the M8, except later for interest and to get some specifications when writing the reviews, and with the M8.2 the only bit I had to read was the Snapshot section in order to learn anything new. That must have taken two or three minutes.
What's to learn, after all? The shutter speed dial (except perhaps S) and the rangefinder are like any of your old Ms, and the meter is quickly figured out by looking through the looky-hole and twiddling the shutter speed and aperture, and the menus struck me as pretty self-explanatory too.
As a matter of interest, you say 'on assignment': what sort of assignment? We're always being told, after all, that professionals don't use Leicas...
Cheers,
R.
It's a gorgeous camera, isn't it? And believe me, the apparently tiny changes compared with the M8 make a disproportionate difference.
When it comes to the manuals, though, I'm with Fred. I used to write computer software manuals (for ICL) and my standard reply to anyone who said, "It's not that simple" was "Then go away and redesign it until it is."
I don't think I bothered to read the manual of the M8, except later for interest and to get some specifications when writing the reviews, and with the M8.2 the only bit I had to read was the Snapshot section in order to learn anything new. That must have taken two or three minutes.
What's to learn, after all? The shutter speed dial (except perhaps S) and the rangefinder are like any of your old Ms, and the meter is quickly figured out by looking through the looky-hole and twiddling the shutter speed and aperture, and the menus struck me as pretty self-explanatory too.
As a matter of interest, you say 'on assignment': what sort of assignment? We're always being told, after all, that professionals don't use Leicas...
Cheers,
R.
leicashot
Well-known
Hey Roger I am a photographer and use the M8 on assignment, but would never rely on it solely, as it is a prone camera to faults. Coming from my M6/MP days I never thought I'd say this, but I would trust a Nikon/Canon over a Leica digital any day.
I only use my M8 on certain jobs where it would be appropriate. The M8 is 'not' a pro camera, as it's exlectronics are not weather sealed and it's short history has been prone to faults, especially considering that one must use a 'internal reflections' prone filter to combat UV/sensor issues.
Most documentary photographers I know (many quite famous) have tried the M8, but like me, can't rely on it for assignments. They've had to go the Nikon/Canon route to stay working, and use their old M's for personal use and projects only.
Ok, I guess I'm gonna get a flaming right about now....in my defense, this review sums up the M8 perfectly in a professional sense. http://web.mac.com/kamberm/Leica_M8_Field_Test,_Iraq/Page_1.html
The review is as accurate as you can get for the M8. So why do I own one? Cause I love the M system style of shooting. While the quality is great I like rangefinder photography and shoot digital evryday for work, so going back to film would be costly, incovenient and disrupt my workflow. The M8 is a great amatuer camera, and i'm sure that dispite how great the M9 could be, it's potential market is at least 90% amatuer.
Now on with the flaming.....
Roger Hicks
Veteran
I won't entirely disagree. I know a number of people who use the M8 professionally, in the sense of 'part of earning a living', and I don't think any of them use ONLY an M8. It's just interesting to know what sort of work they do with it. The point about professionals never even trying the M8 is that amateurs often seem to believe this, in the teeth of the evidence.
The only place I'd really disagree is with the weather sealing. This is a comparatively recent innovation. For decades, professionals used non-weather-sealed cameras and it just wasn't a concern. Yes, it's nice, but I'd have thought it was hardly decisive.
Leicas were originally introduced as amateur cameras and have always sold mostly to amateurs -- which is also true of most Nikons, Canons and even Hasselblads -- but equally there have always been professionals who find that the Leica is the best tool for a job.
Sure, I wouldn't trust a single camera for ANY job outside the studio -- I want to carry two -- but (a) I've yet to have an M8/M8.2 fail on me and (b) if I have both with me, I'm not worried about failure. They're a long way from perfect, but then, so am I...
On my next trip to India, shooting for photo and Land Rover magazines as well as for my site and (insh'Allah) future books, and quite possibly for the Tibetan Government in Exile (I shot a lot for them in the past), I'd hope to carry an M9 (if it's out by then) and my MP, possibly with an old M8 and an even older M2 as backups.
Cheers,
R.
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leicashot
Well-known
Roger, regarding weather sealing, I used to use an M6/MP and would never worry cause it was fully mechanical. The same could not be said with the M8 and all it's unreliable electronics. They 'need' to be protected more than an M6/MP. If one thing goes wrong with the M8, you have a dead camera......you can't compare it to the Leicas' of ol'
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I think weather sealing on the M8 would add considerably to it's credibility as a pro tool. I'm damned if I'd risk standing out in the rain with mine!
When you think about the way Leica have had to shoe horn electronics into various parts of that old M body because it was never an ideal platform for digital in the first place ... why wouldn't they weather seal it?
When you think about the way Leica have had to shoe horn electronics into various parts of that old M body because it was never an ideal platform for digital in the first place ... why wouldn't they weather seal it?
Roger Hicks
Veteran
mikemyers
Established
To answer the questions about why I felt a quick-start guide would have been helpful, here's the scenario. I just got back from India and Thailand, and wasn't feeling that great. I flew to Toledo to cover a radio control car race for RC Car Magazine, and brought my D3 and a few lenses for that purpose. I also brought my new M8, intending to use it to shoot the people. At this point I had only clicked off one or two images, just to see that the camera was working.
I turned on the camera, and set it to "S" mode, thinking that I'd just shoot a lot of the racers in this basic setting, get used to using the camera again (the last time I had used an M was maybe 25 years ago!). I got to wondering what setting the image size was set to, and nothing I could do with the menu system brought up that information. It's a simple camera, and there are only a few buttons. No combination of buttons brought up anything I wanted to see. I went around anyway, and took a few images, but for reasons that had nothing to do with the camera, as I said, I wasn't feeling very well and went back to my area to rest and look over the camera. I never did figure out how to get to see what I wanted - the menu system seemed "broken", but I assumed it was probably some simple thing I was doing wrong.
I had already read the manual, and yes, it does explain this, but I guess I didn't pay enough attention to what I was reading. So, for the rest of the day I just used the camera the way it was, and did get some rather nice images. I was puzzled though, as I really wanted to figure out if I was shooting jpg or raw, and what image size and quality settings were being used.
In retrospect, it's "obvious". Turn the shutter speed dial to something other than "S" and all the menus come to life. I can understand why the programmers did this, as it makes the camera almost as easy to use as a P&S. Nothing confusing appears when you press the buttons on the back.
If I were involved in producing and selling the Leica, I'd have a quick start guide that specifically told people to put the camera in "S" mode, and *also* stated that this turns off most of the menu system, and puts the camera in charge of ALL the settings.
Some of the people reading this might have turned the shutter speed dial to something other than "S" and would have gone on to learn more about the settings and the camera. In my case, I just didn't even consider that having the dial on "S" was the reason why I couldn't find anything in the menus. Today, it's "obvious", but that very first day it was anything but.
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Is the M8 a "professional camera"? I have no idea, nor do I think it matters. It's a good solid camera, and I expect it's going to work just fine with no problems. If I'm using it to get some images to be published, I guess that makes it a "professional camera", but I don't like labels like that. I think it will be great for a lot of the things I want to photograph for myself, but it would never be able to take the photos I needed to get at this racing event. The D3 on the other hand was absolutely perfect for the racing photos. However, the M8 was just as good for taking photos of the racers, and in some ways better. I found that people don't pay as much attention when you're using a "smaller" camera, and ignore you, which for me means I'm getting more candid photos, that I like more. With the D3 on the other hand, people look up and smile, and seem too aware of whatever I'm doing - which is not the case as much with the Leica.
I turned on the camera, and set it to "S" mode, thinking that I'd just shoot a lot of the racers in this basic setting, get used to using the camera again (the last time I had used an M was maybe 25 years ago!). I got to wondering what setting the image size was set to, and nothing I could do with the menu system brought up that information. It's a simple camera, and there are only a few buttons. No combination of buttons brought up anything I wanted to see. I went around anyway, and took a few images, but for reasons that had nothing to do with the camera, as I said, I wasn't feeling very well and went back to my area to rest and look over the camera. I never did figure out how to get to see what I wanted - the menu system seemed "broken", but I assumed it was probably some simple thing I was doing wrong.
I had already read the manual, and yes, it does explain this, but I guess I didn't pay enough attention to what I was reading. So, for the rest of the day I just used the camera the way it was, and did get some rather nice images. I was puzzled though, as I really wanted to figure out if I was shooting jpg or raw, and what image size and quality settings were being used.
In retrospect, it's "obvious". Turn the shutter speed dial to something other than "S" and all the menus come to life. I can understand why the programmers did this, as it makes the camera almost as easy to use as a P&S. Nothing confusing appears when you press the buttons on the back.
If I were involved in producing and selling the Leica, I'd have a quick start guide that specifically told people to put the camera in "S" mode, and *also* stated that this turns off most of the menu system, and puts the camera in charge of ALL the settings.
Some of the people reading this might have turned the shutter speed dial to something other than "S" and would have gone on to learn more about the settings and the camera. In my case, I just didn't even consider that having the dial on "S" was the reason why I couldn't find anything in the menus. Today, it's "obvious", but that very first day it was anything but.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Is the M8 a "professional camera"? I have no idea, nor do I think it matters. It's a good solid camera, and I expect it's going to work just fine with no problems. If I'm using it to get some images to be published, I guess that makes it a "professional camera", but I don't like labels like that. I think it will be great for a lot of the things I want to photograph for myself, but it would never be able to take the photos I needed to get at this racing event. The D3 on the other hand was absolutely perfect for the racing photos. However, the M8 was just as good for taking photos of the racers, and in some ways better. I found that people don't pay as much attention when you're using a "smaller" camera, and ignore you, which for me means I'm getting more candid photos, that I like more. With the D3 on the other hand, people look up and smile, and seem too aware of whatever I'm doing - which is not the case as much with the Leica.
mikemyers
Established
Regarding reliability, I learned long ago that you can't trust any camera completely, and you must have a backup camera "just in case". There's nothing like traveling hundreds, or thousands, of miles, getting to the place you intend to take photos at, and finding that your camera picked just that moment to develop a problem.
The worst possible scenario is to purchase any recently introduced camera. The more the changes between that and the previous model, the greater the chances that it will have some defect that the factory will need to fix. For me, this happened both with Nikon's brand new D2h when it was first introduced, and also with the mass produced D70. Both came with defects that required the camera to be sent back for repairs. From what I've read here, the same thing happened with the early Leica M8 cameras, and I suspect it might be the same thing when/if the new M9 is released. My advice (which unfortunately I don't always follow) is to wait at least a year after a new camera is introduced before buying one (which also makes it less expensive).
Regarding my Nikon D2h, after going through three or four of them, I was so disgusted that I asked the people at Nikon to send me a "demo" D2x camera that they had been using themselves for a while. They did just that, and that camera has worked perfectly ever since.
The worst possible scenario is to purchase any recently introduced camera. The more the changes between that and the previous model, the greater the chances that it will have some defect that the factory will need to fix. For me, this happened both with Nikon's brand new D2h when it was first introduced, and also with the mass produced D70. Both came with defects that required the camera to be sent back for repairs. From what I've read here, the same thing happened with the early Leica M8 cameras, and I suspect it might be the same thing when/if the new M9 is released. My advice (which unfortunately I don't always follow) is to wait at least a year after a new camera is introduced before buying one (which also makes it less expensive).
Regarding my Nikon D2h, after going through three or four of them, I was so disgusted that I asked the people at Nikon to send me a "demo" D2x camera that they had been using themselves for a while. They did just that, and that camera has worked perfectly ever since.
leicashot
Well-known
Roger Hicks
Veteran
leicashot
Well-known
Well JSU described the M8.2 as a 'whole different camera' to the M8. In light of the improvements, one does not need to relearn anything, except the specs maybe. Just shows how our perceptions vastly differ.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Indeed. This is ever one of the great problems of the internet. I'm not arguing with you: I'm agreeing with the highlighted bit (and thus by implication with the whole post). Except perhaps 'S'.
Cheers,
R.
leicashot
Well-known
Of course Roger, I'm sure in person we'd all be laughing over beers....on the net, interpretation and misunderstanding are common place. I have a very direct and sometimes abrupt way of saying things, so I can be easily misunderstood, but that is the way I say things....I can promise it comes out much nicer in person ;-)
outfitter
Well-known
I know nothing about the Leica M8 and have been reading this thread for enlightenment but I am confused. Aside from ergonometric criticisms Kamber convincingly stated that there was (1) a green color cast; (2) noise at higher iso's (3) too much depth of field at wide angle and (4) erratic metering and color balance. Have all of this problems been cured in the M8.2?