Need Kiev 4 Survival Tips

[Kingston]

Hello everyone,

I'm totally new in the world of rangefinders and I decided to start with a Kiev 4 bought on ebay, like many of you did I suppose.
I received one in very good condition from a trusted seller a few days ago, it is a Kiev 4 from 1959 with Jupiter 8 lenses.
I really wanted to avoid creating such a thread asking for help but after days of reading all the litterature I could find on Kiev 4 I am still clueless about basic things. I especially struggle with all the technical words (winding, cocking, knob, take up spool...) as I'm not a native speaker (I'm French). Anyway, I feel like I will have questions and it would be great if you could help me understand the mechanism of this great camera before I do something wrong and regret it.

I would like to start with winding the shutter and setting the shutter speed. I started trying to get familiar with the knob without a film loaded and I hope I did not break anything yet.
So here is how I understand things in plain language:
We can either turn the knob or pull it and turn. And there are two things we want to do: to set the shutter speed and wind the shutter.
Now here are my questions:
1. Is there a specific order?
2. Turning the knob is to cock the shutter, and pulling-and-turning for setting the shutter speed, right?
3. Do we always have to turn (and pull-and-turn) clockwise or not?
4. What is the thing to absolutely avoid doing?

So basically if someone can tell me in a detailed way and plain language the steps to do that, it would be great.
What I do so far from what I understand is: I turn the knob until it stops. Then, I actually have to release the shutter otherwise it won't move anywhere, and then I pull and turn until I put the black dot in front of a shutter speed, then I release the shutter and it makes the sound. Is it very wrong?

I would have other questions but I will save them for later.

I hope I posted in the right forum and I'm sorry if the question was already asked, I read similar threads on different websites but I could not find an explanation clear enough. I also apologize for the stupidity of my questions as it might seem basic things to know.

Thank you for your help!

 

[Penny Lane]

To try and answer your questions:

1. AFAIK the camera is designed to be able to set the shutter speed either before or after winding on. Many people suggest to only set the shutter speed after winding on though. As it does seem to work smoother that way (setting the speeds that is) I keep to setting the shutter speed after winding on.

2. Right.

3. Turn (wind on): yes. Pull & turn (set shutter speed): No. You can't move straight from B to 1/1250 and vice versa, so you'll have to go both ways to move to and from all shutter speeds.

4. Forgetting to take your lens cap off 😛

When you turn the winding knob until it stops, the film is advanced by 1 frame (or a bit more) and the shutter is cocked; frame spacing may be a bit irregular though as Kievs seem to suffer from that more than other cameras. When the knob has stopped, you can simply set the shutter speed (pull up/turn) and take the shot. On slow shutter speeds you may hear a sneezing/wheezing sound, which is quite normal. On fast speeds, the camera should be very quiet but you'll be able to feel it firing.

About winding on: I've always found it a quirk of Kievs that winding on is a two-stage action. At first, the knob will move easily as it only transports the film, but when the shutter winding mechanism engages the resistance of the knob will increase quite decidedly. It's quite logical though as there are a lot more bits moving around in the last stage of winding.

Hope this helps,
Derk

 

[bgb]

http://www.sovietcamera.fr/

http://www.butkus.org/chinon/russian/kiev-4M/kiev-4-splash.htm

There is a button on the Butkus site that allows you to translate the manual into French

 

[summar]

Fast answers to your questions from a Kiev 4a owner:
1. Advance the film and cock the shutter by turning the knob BEFORE setting the shutter speed by lifting and turning.
2. Right.
3. You can only turn the knob in one direction to advance the film and cock the shutter. For setting the shutter speed you can lift and then turn the knob in either direction, clockwise or counter-clockwise.
4. It's best NOT to set the shutter speed before cocking the shutter. Advance the film first, which cocks the shutter, THEN set the shutter speed by lifting and turning.
Here's how I do it:
1. Wind the film (which cocks the shutter).
2. Set the shutter speed.
3. Release the shutter.
There's a manual for the camera on this site:
http://www.butkus.org/chinon/russian/kiev-4/kieva-a-splash.htm
The Jupiter 8 is a fine lens.
Your English is much better than my French, but if my explanations aren't clear send me a personal message!

 

[newspaperguy]

Good explanation from Derk. I too wind before setting speeds.

One suggestion - wind with both hands. In other words, twist (wind) the knob with your right hand as you 'twist' the camera in the opposite direction.

Oh yes, learn the "Contax grip."

Sorry, I tried to respond in French, but is been 50+ years since I was stationed in Bordeaux.

All gone now. 🙁

Rick

 

[Kingston]

Thank you for your answers!

I'll try to learn in English as there are more resources, I think it's better than a google translation in French! I study and work in London now so it should be fine, it's just that it's a pretty technical field and some words do not ring any bell at all, but I'll get used to it.

It's already much better!

I think I will be fine with the Contax grip and removing the lens cap 😀 It is really the mechanism I'd like to understand.

Penny Lane: "You can't move straight from B to 1/1250 and vice versa"

That's what I did actually. So in this case I should move counter clockwise? Because when you wind it, you'll always end up on B (or around it) right?

Summar: Thank you, it's very clear, I just get confused myself somehow.

For example, here is what I get when I try now: I'm on 250, I wind it and end up after B, from there it's not possible to pull-and-turn counter clockwise, I have to get all the way to 250 again and release the shutter. It seems like I can move counter clockwise only when I end up on or before B, but when I stop on, say 50, and release the shutter it does not make any noise.

Newspaperguy: Yes I can understand, I already forgot most of my German 5 years after stopping learning it, so 50 years... But I was also "stationed" in Maryland (exchange student at Johns Hopkins) 😀

 

[maddoc]

I just received my Kiev4AM last night (with a HELIOS-103 lens) and immediately checked the camera before loading the first roll of film. My camera seems to be NOS, never used and initially setting shutter speeds needed some force to pull the advance lever and rotate it to the desired shutter-speed.

After completely advancing the film, I lift the advance lever ring, and set the shutter-speed. After taking the shot and if you want to use the same shutter speed then no need to lift the advance lever ring, just rotate until it stops. 🙂

 

[Kingston]

Thank you Maddoc!

It seems to me that it is more simple on Kiev 4AM and on 4A as well. But with the 4 it's somewhat different as there is no advance lever on the left side. Cocking the shutter and setting the shutter speed is done with the same knob on the right side, and the left one is for the aperture. That's why I get confused and I read some threads (or even the manual) where they actually talk about the 4a so it is even more confusing to me 🙂

 

[Dez]

C'est pas si pire, copain! Je crois que ton anglais est meilleur que mon francais.

The reason that winding the shutter seems to be in two parts is that depending on the shutter speed selected, the winding of the shutter does not actually start until the second part of the film advance, when you feel stronger resistance. For slower speeds, the shutter is wound further.
You can set the shutter speed before or after winding the film, but if you change to a slower speed after winding, you are actually continuing to wind the shutter, and that feels strange.

Both Kievs and prewar Contaxes sometimes have a problem where the shutter is not completely wound when you think you have come to the end of the wind, and you can see a "different" shutter speed appear, and I think this is happening to you. To avoid this, make certain you have wound it ALL the way, and when pushing the shutter button, make sure you have pushed it ALL the way down before winding to the next frame. That is probably the one thing you must always be certain to do. The only two things I know you can not do are to:

- lift and turn the shutter speed dial in the space between B and 1/1000
- change the shutter speed when the shutter is partially wound.

In any case, you can turn the shutter speed in either direction before or after winding, but after winding, you are actually winding and unwinding the shutter spring when you do it.

Cheers, and welcome to the club of rangefinder fans.
Dez

 

[wolves3012]

Just to add to the good explanations above: unlike some FEDs and Zorkis, you will not do any damage to the Kiev mechanism by changing speeds when the shutter is not wound (cocked). What is possible though is that you might not actually get the speed you have set. This only happens with certain of the slower speeds and just to repeat, no damage is done (except to your photo!).

EDIT: By the way, your English is perfectly fine.

 

[wolves3012]

4. Forgetting to take your lens cap off 😛

This is easily cured. Make sure you have a filter on the lens, then don't use a lens-cap at all. The Kiev has a metal shutter which cannot be burnt by the sun being in the frame, although I suppose it could get quite hot, eventually.

 

[Kingston]

Thank you for your answers!

I manage to get something regular when I set on 250/500, wind until it gets to the right (after B), set clockwise to 250500 again, and release the shutter. But if I set to 50 for example, then when I wind it stops before B and then it cannot go further clockwise as you mentionned (or I need to release the shutter and then lift and turn clocwisebut) then if I set counterclockwise anywhere and release the shutter there is no sound at all. So I do not really get that.

I would like to make sure I understand this first before loading a film inside.
But here are further questions:

1. The tongue for infinity neer the focus wheel, should it always be in? I put in in while adjusting but can't understand how to get it out again, although I think it does not matter that much.

2. The take up spool and cutting the film leader. I have a take up spool with two central holes opposite to each others and each about 1cm long. I asked the guy who sold me the films and he told me I will have to slightly cut the film leader. Is there a good online guide for that? I found some for Leica (like this: http://jay.fedka.com/index_files/Page345.htm) but I do not know if I should do the same (and of course I do not have a trimmer, only scissors), and I was told to cut slightly and it seems to be a lot here.

Thanks for your help!

 

[newspaperguy]

The 'tongue' is to release the lens from its infinity position so you can focus.

It "locks" to enable you to change lenses easily. Otherwise the mount would rotate
as you attempt to remove your lens.

(A 35 mm Jupiter 12 wide angle in Kiev mount is a wonderful addition to your kit.)

I can't recall any reason for a special film cut for the Kievs.
That's a torture reserved for the bottom loading Leica & it's clones crowd. :angel:

 

[Dez]

But if I set to 50 for example, then when I wind it stops before B and then it cannot go further clockwise as you mentionned (or I need to release the shutter and then lift and turn clocwisebut) then if I set counterclockwise anywhere and release the shutter there is no sound at all. So I do not really get that.

This sounds very strange, and it may be that there is a mechanical problem with your camera. Here is what must happen when the camera is set to 1/50 second. I suggest you remove the back of the camera to watch the shutter to verify that this is correct in your camera.

- with the camera not wound, set the speed to 1/50.
- start to wind the knob. You will see that the film sprocket rotates, but the shutter does not move at first.
- When the index dot on the winding knob gets approximately 10 degrees past the B position, there will be a click, and when you continue winding the shutter will start to move up. There is more resistance to the wind knob now because you are winding springs in the shutter.
- Continue winding. When the dot gets to approximately the 1/500 position, the shutter curtain stops moving up.
- Keep winding all the way to the 1/50 position.

Remember to wind all the way, and push the shutter button all the way down. The wind mechanism in these cameras is very complicated, and even in the original Contaxes there were sometimes troubles with partial winding. Except for the very early Kievs, this problem got worse with time as the build quality went down in the Kiev factory, and the partial wind problem is not rare in newer Kievs.

I have seen a take-up spool like the one you describe. Some of the Kievs had that design and it is very inconvenient. For this spool, you need to have a "tongue" of film in the centre of the film instead of the bottom. You can cut this with scissors, but you are wasting some film to do it. It is better to get a different take-up spool- they are easy to find on ebay.

Bonne chance,
Dez

 

[Kingston]

Thank you for your answers!

Newspaperguy: Yes I understand now, I did something and the tongue went up again, although I'm not sure what I did to do that.

Dez: Thanks for the detailed answers, I tried what you said and here is what happened:

1. I set to 1/50, and wind and it stopped just before B. Then I could not keep winding actually, but if I press the shutter release button then I can, so I did that and kept winding until 1/50 as you said and it worked fine. Is it normal I had to press the shutter release before going further after the click?

2. What do you mean "push the shutter button all the way down"? I just started something stupid, to wind while having the shutter button pushed down, and now it's stuck, it's winding indefinitely, why and how do I get back to normal ?

EDIT: Nevermind the 2., I just found out I had to turn the shutter release to align the red dots so that it pops up again.

 

[Dez]

No, it is not normal to need to press the shutter partway through the wind. It looks like you are seeing the problem I mentioned.

Of course you are not lifting the shutter dial while winding it, correct? If you wind it until it stops before B and then press the shutter, does the shutter actually operate, or is there just a small click? Then when you continue winding, does it come back to the 1/50 sec position properly? After that, if you do not change the shutter speed, does it always come back to 1/50 and fire correctly?. The 1/50 shutter should be a quick "BZZZ" the 125 and faster a "Click".

Cheers,
Dez

 

[Kingston]

I just lift and turn at the beginning for setting the shutter speed on 1/50. Then, I wind it clockwise, it stops on 5 (or 2, seems like it depends) and won't go further. I press the shutter release button (it is silent and has no effect on the shutter) and then I can keep on winding, first easily until it goes to the right (I guess the place where it is supposed to be properly cocked, the exact right shortly after B) and then with more resistance as it is lifting the shutter, until I get to a speed (there is some kind of click when I reach 1/50 but it seems like I can stop anywhere, no special resistance for it to stop exactly on 1/50) and finally I press the release shutter and it makes the Bzzz sound (and indeed it does the faster Click on 125 and faster.
The result is the same if I don't even set the shutter speed at the beginning (if I just wind, it stops before B, then I press the shutter release, then I keep on until the speed, I press and it makes the noise).
Thanks for your help!

Edit: Oh wow, I kept on trying and I don't know why now it's fine, I don't need to click anymore... It works perfectly fine as you said! I'll stick with that then, and hope it will always work this way. Is it ok to set the shutter speed before winding though?

 

[Dez]

It is OK to set the shutter speed before winding, but again, do not turn the knob between B and 1/1000.

The problem you are seeing is probably caused by old grease becoming too stiff, combined with the poorer tolerances of the later Kiev than with the Contax. Exercising the camera as you are doing may keep it OK, but the camera really should have the mechanism cleaned. Unfortunately this is a much more complicated job with the Kiev than it is for the screwmount cameras. I have done this on several cameras, and it is not a very simple job. There are several good repair people available, and I would ask people to add their suggestions, but be careful: the cost of repair is often greater than the cost of the camera.

Before you put film through the camera, I suggest you view through the shutter at all speeds to make sure it is working properly. It is common for the shutter to not open at the highest shutter speed. Also, check that the shutter speeds seem to be the same with and without the self-timer. Again it is a common problem for the shutter to not work properly with the self-timer.

Always be sure to wind it up all the way each time, and to be sure the shutter button is pressed all the way down when you release the shutter.

Where are you located?

Cheers,
Dez

 

[Kingston]

Thank you Dez.

My Kiev 4 is from 1959 so I think it's not such a late model, I thought the problems were on models from the 70s.
The seller said in the description that it was serviced (CLA) and worked fine, on all shutter speeds. It is an ukrainian with great feedback on ebay so I think it is reliable (it is this camera: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/310621877...X:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_1397wt_1118).
Maybe I just did something wrong at the beginning, I'll stick to the method you told me as it seems to work fine this way.
As you said, bringing it to repair will cost almost as much as the camera itself so I'll first try it and see if I really have problems with it.

For the self timer, I managed to make it work yesterday randomly, now that I try again, it does not work. As I read somewhere it often does not work properly (like the exposure meter), I think I'll do without these features.

I'm in London until the end of the term (then I live in Toulouse but might end up anywhere soon, that is why I need a camera with me!)

 

[Dez]

I see in the ebay listing that the seller says that the self timer and meter both work. It looks very good, but it does not appear to be working as well as the seller says. If I were you, I would return it for a refund.

Cheers,
Dez