Negatives are purple after developing

I always test my fixer on a cut-off piece of film leader - if it clears the film in 2 mins it's OK to re-use for my normal 4-5 min fix, and if it takes longer it's time to throw it away and make up some more.

And yes, I also agree the purple is anti-halation layer that hasn't been washed out. My Tri-X is always purple when it comes out of the fixer, but the purple has almost gone when it's washed - I wash for longer than these new-fangled teachers will try to tell you is enough. Use of HCA leads people to underwash, I think - you don't need much washing to get the fixer out, but you need a good bit more to get out the purple anti-halation stuff.
 
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Fixer does not remove the sensitizer dyes in Tmax and some other modern films which cause that staining - they are barely soluble in acidic environments. Hypo clearing agent will remove it as a side effect, being alkaline, and more strongly alkaline developers get rid of it as well.
 
Well, I'd agree with most of whats been said here already. The purple/pink colour cast is nothing to do with fixing. Washing does lessen it, if you do this in daylight you'll notice a pink cast the the waste water which gradually reduces after each rinse. I have also found that the pink cast disappears after 24 hours on being hun in daylight (Whilst waiting to be scanned).
 
another film that normally gives a purple cast is Neopan 100SS. I'm not sure why the cast matters, brown, black, none, purple, as long as the image comes out developed properly, right?

For testing fixer, try saving a bit of undeveloped film and see how many minutes it takes to clear. That's a free easy way to test.
 
This is not new. I had the same problem 25 years ago with various film and developer combinations.
I tried varying fix and/or rinse times, adding HCA etc. but to no avail. I never found the true cause...

Chris
 
A few yard down the road ...

The purple color of the film base after development is something I get with most BW films (Delta 100 and 400, TX400, Acros ...), but not with HP5 and FP4+.

It takes VERY long to wash out and it does not seem to be able to wash away completely. Last time I was washing Acros for 30 minutes with inverse agitation (I changed the water 15 times in a drum) and it is still pink.

I am also not sure whether it actually is the anti-hallaiton layer as this comes away with the pre-wash and has different color than the base (I have seen dark green, dark blue ...). The base is always pink/magenta.

I would like to get rid of the remaining base color - is there any washing aid that could help?
 
If it's sensitizing dye, many are degraded by exposure to light. Leave the neg sleeve on a table near a window, in indirect light, for a couple of days.

Cheers,

R.
 
My experience is that the purple color is in fact the anti-halation layer
You can google "inform film washing method" for a water efficient way to wash it out

Basically you fill the tank w water and invert the tank increasing number of time for each cycle then dump and refill

You can literally see the purple dye when you discard the water into a white sink

After a while the purple lessens and disappears completely

Personally I reuse the fixer and dump everything else. Stop bath is cheap and developer is mixed as one shot , also not expensive per roll
 
let me try again - "the purple stuff, whatever it is, is not meant to be in the final dried negative and can be removed by vigorous washing"
 
I am also not sure whether it actually is the anti-hallaiton layer as this comes away with the pre-wash and has different color than the base (I have seen dark green, dark blue ...). The base is always pink/magenta.

I would like to get rid of the remaining base color - is there any washing aid that could help?

If you really mean the base colour, there is nothing to be done about that. There are three classes of dyes to the usual 135 black and white film:

1. A fully washable dye in the anti-halation layer between emulsion proper and base - this dissolves completely in the pre-wash, and most makers pick their dyes so that they lose colour in the presence of alkalines, so that you don't see more than a pale yellow stain if you develop without pre-wash. Some technical films are a exception, and sometimes have people worried that their developer turned purple or green.

2. The plastics base is dyed "anti light piping" grey, to avoid light entering the leader from exposing the film inside the spool. This is in the plastics, and can't be removed. There is nothing to be done about it other than buying clear base films, but medium to fast black and white films in clear probably will be a special order item today (except for the remaining Agfa Scala rolls), and clear film must be loaded in subdued light.

3. The emulsion itself contains sensitizing dyes - the recently most popular sensitizers are less toxic than older formulations, but hard to remove by washing. But all of them fade rapidly in the presence of light (part of the physics behind sensitizing) - if you don't have the patience for a half hour wash sequence, just leave the film (in archival sleeves) about in the light for a day or two.
 
Let me rephrase for Roger - "the purple stuff, whatever it is, is not meant to be in the final dried negative and can be removed by vigorous washing"
Entirely true. The only reason I queried your post is because there's is a lot of vagueness and dispute about what it is: I've read all sort of explanations, and even the manufacturers don't always seem to agree. Or, more accurately, the manufacturers' and (still more) distributors' spokesmen, who vary widely in technical knowledge and trustworthiness.

My understanding is that most anti-halation dyes are neutralized (i.e. rendered colourless) by the processing chemicals, but I've also seen some VERY funny colours in the developer when that's poured out (arguing for extremely soluble dyes) and apparently there have even (though I have never encountered them) been anti-halation layers that were physically removed from the backs of glass plates by rubbing with a finger tip.

Cheers,

R.
 
apparently there have even (though I have never encountered them) been anti-halation layers that were physically removed from the backs of glass plates by rubbing with a finger tip.

The remjet coating on the rear side of motion picture taking stock is something like that - but its main purpose is as a scratch protection layer. The second purpose is to avoid light piping by blocking light from entering the clear base from the rear. But as the film has a regular anti-halation layer, the remjet probably does not have much to do about that.
 
if your scanning or printing in b&w It really doesn't matter, I've got negs 40+ years old in lots of odd colours and I even shot colour neg for b&w,the final print is what's important.
 
If it's sensitizing dye, many are degraded by exposure to light. Leave the neg sleeve on a table near a window, in indirect light, for a couple of days.

Cheers,

R.

Correct. If Perma Wash doesn't do it, hang it in the window for a day. Properly fixed b/w will not be harmed.

Dante
 
Thanks for all your answers. I agree that a proper wash would probably do the job, but I gave up after 30 minutes of washing - the water would still come out slightly pink.

I will try that 'window' method.
 
This is interesting to me including the responses since I have been developing film since the late 50's and have never encountered purple negatives except for the B&W C-41 negatives..

This has to be a developing error which may include exhausted chemicals.
 
So I started a Black and White Film photography class at my high-school (I'm a senior and this is the second time I've taken it). Today I was showing another student how to develop film (Kodak TMax400 in D76) and after we finished, the roll had a purple cast.

We asked my teacher about it and she said that we didn't fix long enough (We fixed for 18 minutes). She said that new Kodak Film was being made differently. She also said that we could remove the purple cast by letting the film dry overnight and fixing it again tomorrow.

Does what she is saying sound right? I am kind of nervous because I have a roll of Tri-X400 that I'm currently shooting and I don't want it to turn out purple. Any tips?

Over-fixed and insufficiently washed.

Film developing chemistry basics:

- It is best if *all* your B&W chemistry is done at the same temperature ... all development and fixing, all water washes should be at the same temperature ... unless you know precisely what you're doing and are 'bending' the process to achieve a given result. I prepare to process film by mixing the chemistry and filling my water supply jug the night before and letting everything stand on the counter overnight so that temperatures stabilize to room temperature. I set up the processing times by reading the time @ temperature development chart for the film type, exposure index used, and developer concentration. (I tweak that value per my agitation method and other experience.)

- Most standard solution developers are mixed to reuse for a number of films. If you process infrequently, you should mix developer concentrations for one-shot use, that way you always are ensured of fresh developer and consistent results.

- Using an acid stop bath is largely unnecessary. Most of what a stop bath is supposed to do is to keep fixer from being exhausted too quickly. I use a water bath instead, rinsing the film twice between developer and fixer.

- Fixer, like developer, is normally designed to be used for a number of films before it is exhausted. Over-fixing just embeds sodium thiosulfate into the emulsion which will eventually dissolve the silver grains and fade the negatives if not washed out. How long should you fix? Take an unexposed bit of film (say, the leader) and put it in a little puddle of fixer. Time how long it takes to become clear. That's the minimum ... add 50% to that and you have a good fix time. If it takes longer than 3-4 minutes to clear, either the fixer is too weak or it is almost exhausted: replace it with freshly mixed fixer.

- Washing should be long enough to expunge the residual fixer absorbed by the film emulsion, and not long enough to overly soften the emulsion. Ten complete changes of water is enough. I do it by filling the developing tank, agitating gently, stand for a minute, emptying, and re-filling rather than using a continuous wash so that I can maintain even temperatures. After the third rinse, I do a rinse with a hypo-clearing agent to chemically ensure that the fixer is removed from the film, and then continue rinsing for the remaining six fill and empty cycles.

- A quick bath in a wetting agent just prior to hanging the film to dry eliminates most water spots. I squeegee the excess water off the film by dipping my fingers into the wetting agent bath and running the film between my fingers.

Most film has a slightly blue to purple sheen until completely dry. Film that was insufficiently fixed tends to have a yellowish sheen over time as the residual fixer eats away at the silver in the emulsion.

G
 
This is interesting to me including the responses since I have been developing film since the late 50's and have never encountered purple negatives except for the B&W C-41 negatives..

This has to be a developing error which may include exhausted chemicals.
No, really, sensitizing dyes can leave a pink or purple tint even with perfect processing. Ask Ilford. The only way to avoid such things with some films is to fix or wash (or both) for far longer than is necessary for archival permanence.

Cheers,

R.
 
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