Neopan shadows

[wintoid]

I've developed Neopan 400 in various developers at various speeds perhaps 15 or 20 times since the film bug bit me. I'm always impressed by the dark blacks, but always a bit sad to find that the detail in the shadow cannot be seen in the black areas. This doesn't happen with HP5 for example. I've tried DDX, D76, HC110, Rodinal and Acutol, at 400, 800 and 1600 and the shadow detail is consistently missing.

Just wondered if anyone has a trick to get the best out of it. I've been reducing development, and reducing agitation, and using higher dilutions lately, but I just can't quite get it how I want it. It's stunning for geometry, with incredibly black lines running across lighter shades, but portraits that should gradually fade into the shadows are somehow overkill.

 

[johnwnyc]

I've tried DDX, D76, HC110, Rodinal and Acutol, at 400, 800 and 1600 and the shadow detail is consistently missing.

Test your exposures using an incident meter if you haven't already done so-- when testing out new films I don't rely on my in-camera reflective meter. If you continue to experience poor shadow detail, trying rating the film at 320, and then at 250. You'll have to pull back development accordingly to reign in the highlights, but probably not all that much. Search the various forums for greater detail on this. Good luck.

 

[kaiyen]

Yeah, you're going in the wrong direction. You need to increase exposure to get more shadows, not decrease.

allan

 

[Graal]

Expose for the shadows and develope for the highlights. And old guiding principle. Exposure differences mostly works in the shadows. Developing differences mostly works in highlights.

 

[Benjamin Marks]

What Allen said. Look at it this way. The darkest detail that can be held is where there is just enough radiation hitting the film to actually form an image. If the exposure is below this threshold, all the development in the world is not going to help you. Run a personal film speed test to see what you should be rating the film at (maybe for your system, it's ISO 250 rather than 400). It'll only cost you the price of a roll of film, and then you can fine-tune your development from there. BTW, I love Neopan 400, from the time I tried it about a year ago, it has been the b&W film I have shot most.

 

[wintoid]

The darkest detail that can be held is where there is just enough radiation hitting the film to actually form an image. If the exposure is below this threshold, all the development in the world is not going to help you.

Wow. What an incredibly concise and clear explanation. Thank you Benjamin (and everyone else). That changes everything.

So it sounds like I'm not going to be able to push Neopan to 800, 1600 etc without experiencing this problem. In fact I have a similar, but lesser problem with TriX, even in Diafine. The only combination that has worked for me at these speeds with really good shadow detail has been HP5 in DDX. Maybe I just need to stick to that as my fast setup, and keep the others for lower speeds.

 

[Benjamin Marks]

Sounds like a plan. Another way to think of this is in terms of the characteristic curve of each film (usually like an elongated "S" for general purpose films). Shadow detail is on the left, highlights are on the right. What you are doing when you intentionally underexpose (that is "push") a film, is to move your exposure to the right on the curve. You are intentionally sacrificing shadow detail to record an image on the film. This is also why many fine art photographers using the zone system wind up using a film rating that is lower than that printed on the box. They want to be sure to capture shadow detail, figuring that they can always print through a denser portion of a negative (that is, burn in) if they have to, but they can't do anything in terms of post-processing for detail that isn't there. Hey, good luck with your tests.

Ben Marks

 

[John Bragg]

Hi Wintoid,
had similar experience to you with Neopan 400 in HC-110. Empty shadows and hard to get a good print...... Had better success with ID:11 / D:76 1;1 dilution. I think the best bet for pushing speed may be Microphen ?

 

[titrisol]

I think you are ging the wrong way.
First decide on your development time.agitation scheme.
Then sacrifice a roll, look at a evenly lit scene, and meter the light for it. Open the lens 2 stops (+2), shoot, close 1 (+1). shoot, close 1 (0), shoot, close 1 (-1) shoot, close 1 (-2), shoot. [You should be 2 stops darker than what you metered], shoot a blank and do it again.

Then in the darkroom only develop a piece of the film as you had planned, you'll have all your exposures in there.
After it is dry you may scan or do whatever you want to do and check the frames for shadow detail.. The one you like the most will give you the "speed" of the film you want to set in your camera:
+2 = 100
+1 = 200
0 = 400
-1 = 800
-2 = 1600

If it falls in between those numbers don't worry go for the next lowest.
Now take your pictures using that EI you have found and using the development technique you have.
Save the rest of the rolls for development tests, such as more/less time, more/les agitation, etc.

I've developed Neopan 400 in various developers at various speeds perhaps 15 or 20 times since the film bug bit me. I'm always impressed by the dark blacks, but always a bit sad to find that the detail in the shadow cannot be seen in the black areas. This doesn't happen with HP5 for example. I've tried DDX, D76, HC110, Rodinal and Acutol, at 400, 800 and 1600 and the shadow detail is consistently missing.

Just wondered if anyone has a trick to get the best out of it. I've been reducing development, and reducing agitation, and using higher dilutions lately, but I just can't quite get it how I want it. It's stunning for geometry, with incredibly black lines running across lighter shades, but portraits that should gradually fade into the shadows are somehow overkill.

 

[wintoid]

Thanks Titrisol, I think I'm going to follow your advice.

 

[titrisol]

I forgot to say, try getting all sorts of greys in the picture
I like tkaing pictures of the mantel in the house, since there are rocks of several shades and the mantel pieces include cameras, dolls and other things that cover most of the white to black shades

Also, IMHO DDX and Neopan 400 is a winner!
You'll get full 400 speed , almost no grain and very creamy tones.