Neopan400 120. Did I get a bad batch?

[f16sunshine]

I've just developed the second roll of 10 rolls that are recently past expirey... 9-10 or so. These all have been in the freeze for a year + now.

The emulation is lifting of the base on some
edges and I see reticulation.

I used tmax 1:4 at 5min 20c presoaked 5 min at 20c. Normal fix and rinse again at 20c.

Never have I had trouble with this film especially under these fairly normal (slight underdeveloped) conditions.

Anyone else experience problems with neopan400?

I'll post an image later if there is any interest.

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Was your fixer also 20c? I know a lot of people keep a jug of fix mixed and ready to go and it is usually at room temperature (a lot warmer than 20c). Going from 20 degree developer to fix that may be 24 degrees then back to 20 degree wash water will cause exactly the effects you got.

 

[Stelios]

a scan could help a bit more, but reticulation could be the cause of extreme changes in temp between the baths (while washing for example before fixing). although i doubt it would happen from 20 to 25

 

[f16sunshine]

Thanks for the replies.
Liquid temps all were pretty close. I wonder if drying too fast is an issue. The humidity here in CO is nil and I hung the strip in a very warm room. I ran a tmax roll In the sane tank with no problems. I'll post a scan crop later. I guess it's most likely human error but I was as careful as always. The neopan400 being the most unusual factor in the equation. Not a film I use often but I do like it .

 

[Freakscene]

Neopan is susceptible to this from sudden pH shifts. It happens with Rodinal when used with acid stop and has been reported quite often. Maybe the TMax developer is alkaline enough to do it too.

It also could be poor freezing; too many freeze-thaw cycles will do the same thing.

Marty

 

[Bob Michaels]

I have shot a lot of 120 Neopan 400 over the last 7-8 years. I probably used some from every batch Fuji made.

Always developed in Rodinal at 68 degrees. Always stopped with water from the tap, sometimes as warm as 80 degrees. Always used Ilford RapidFix.

Never had the problems you describe. I just don't know what to tell you.

 

[f16sunshine]

The PH here is very high and I did rinse with tap since there is a carbon filter that's pretty effective (spot free). Still seems odd. I'll grab a ph test kit to see how high.

 

[Freakscene]

If you didn't use acid stop it's likely that you've got problems from multiple freeze-thaw cycles. Is your freezer one of the self-defrosting ones that periodically "defrost" by warming the surfaces and allowing the ice to thaw and flow away?

Marty

 

[Bob Michaels]

If you didn't use acid stop it's likely that you've got problems from multiple freeze-thaw cycles. Is your freezer one of the self-defrosting ones that periodically "defrost" by warming the surfaces and allowing the ice to thaw and flow away?

Marty

Marty: you may be right but film does not freeze at +5 and thaw at -5. Water does but we are talking about film. I think the freeze / thaw cycle may be just a minor temperature change for film. I have stopped keeping film in the freezer and just put it in the refrigerator instead.

Of course, if we discount your freeze / thaw explanation we are left with no rational reason. I wonder if the problem is repeatable or a one time occurrence.

 

[Freakscene]

Marty: you may be right but film does not freeze at +5 and thaw at -5. Water does but we are talking about film. I think the freeze / thaw cycle may be just a minor temperature change for film. I have stopped keeping film in the freezer and just put it in the refrigerator instead.

Of course, if we discount your freeze / thaw explanation we are left with no rational reason. I wonder if the problem is repeatable or a one time occurrence.

Gelatin, roughly (the exact temperature depends on the grade and in this case will also be affected by the material dissolved and suspended in it) freezes at -0.5°C. The film base is much more dimensionally stable and as a solid it is arguable whether we can discuss a freezing point for it in meaningful terms. So in a freezer that warms and cools, if you don't adequately insulate the film from the vagaries of temperature, the emulsion will flex and shrink away and towards the base. This is a likely cause of dimensional instability and lifting of the emulsion as described here.

I store my film frozen, but have a freezer that does not self-defrost and I keep the film in a basket in the middle of the freezer surrounded by gel packs that will help keep the film cold for a while if the power goes off. So far, so good, but I only freeze film that I want to keep long term, far past its expiry (usually discontinued stuff that I want to keep using).

Marty

 

[Bob Michaels]

Gelatin, roughly (the exact temperature depends on the grade and in this case will also be affected by the material dissolved and suspended in it) freezes at -0.5°C. The film base is much more dimensionally stable and as a solid it is arguable whether we can discuss a freezing point for it in meaningful terms. So in a freezer that warms and cools, if you don't adequately insulate the film from the vagaries of temperature, the emulsion will flex and shrink away and towards the base. This is a likely cause of dimensional instability and lifting of the emulsion as described here. <snip>
Marty

Marty: I am always open minded, especially with those who have more knowledge than I do. But I am not following gelatin in film freezing at -.5C. It certainly is not a liquid above that point and a solid below.

 

[Freakscene]

Marty: I am always open minded, especially with those who have more knowledge than I do. But I am not following gelatin in film freezing at -.5C. It certainly is not a liquid above that point and a solid below.

Gelatin has a hysteresis in its temperature-phase relationship: its melting and freezing temperatures do not agree. Agar and many other gels do the same thing. There is some really good information here:
http://albumen.conservation-us.org/library/c20/calhoun1959.html about dimensional stability of film.

About hysteresis in solid-liquid phase physical chemistry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysteresis#Liquid-solid_phase_transitions

Sorry, I forget not everyone has the kind of background to know this stuff right away.

Marty