kidblue
Established
Hello,
Longtime lurker, first-time poster.
I'm a young guy who was lucky enough to grow up around film photography, and have been a rangefinder-shooter for the last 10 years, since I was 16.
I currently use a Bessa R (first-generation) with a Voigtlander 35/2.5 and a gorgeous old Canon 50/1.8.
It's a fantastic little kit that is quite "low-impact" and makes for a reasonable "daily driver". That said, it's time to step it up and get a grown-up kit. After a long amount of research and avoiding the costly burden of building a M-based kit, I've decided to go Barnack.
As far as I can tell, I should be relatively happy with a IIIC or IIIF, but the poverty-stricken 20-something that I am sees more of a benefit with the C. I'd like to start by using my current lenses, although either of the common 50 mm collapsable lenses (Elmar/Summitar) would be a boon and make me feel complete.
I've read lots of comparisons between the C and F, but I find myself confused between the serial numbers/versions of those models, and the risk of purchasing a body online. Obviously, I'm broke, so I don't care about cosmetics, only a good tight curtain and accurate speeds.
What are my best bets looking for a body/lens combination in the $300/range? Where should I buy and what am I looking for in terms of a model beyond the obvious feature-set and good condition of the shutter and speeds?
Full disclosure, I posted a "want to buy" in the appropriate section, but I didn't want to ask too many questions in that spot
Thanks in advance and looking forward to being a part of this great community,
Noah
Longtime lurker, first-time poster.
I'm a young guy who was lucky enough to grow up around film photography, and have been a rangefinder-shooter for the last 10 years, since I was 16.
I currently use a Bessa R (first-generation) with a Voigtlander 35/2.5 and a gorgeous old Canon 50/1.8.
It's a fantastic little kit that is quite "low-impact" and makes for a reasonable "daily driver". That said, it's time to step it up and get a grown-up kit. After a long amount of research and avoiding the costly burden of building a M-based kit, I've decided to go Barnack.
As far as I can tell, I should be relatively happy with a IIIC or IIIF, but the poverty-stricken 20-something that I am sees more of a benefit with the C. I'd like to start by using my current lenses, although either of the common 50 mm collapsable lenses (Elmar/Summitar) would be a boon and make me feel complete.
I've read lots of comparisons between the C and F, but I find myself confused between the serial numbers/versions of those models, and the risk of purchasing a body online. Obviously, I'm broke, so I don't care about cosmetics, only a good tight curtain and accurate speeds.
What are my best bets looking for a body/lens combination in the $300/range? Where should I buy and what am I looking for in terms of a model beyond the obvious feature-set and good condition of the shutter and speeds?
Full disclosure, I posted a "want to buy" in the appropriate section, but I didn't want to ask too many questions in that spot
Thanks in advance and looking forward to being a part of this great community,
Noah
Dave Wilkinson
Veteran
.....er...why so keen to take a 'backward step' - then?
kidblue
Established
Funny, I've been thinking of it as a "forward step"!
I know I can always turn off my light-meter, screw on an Elmar, leave the viewfinder guide at 50 mm and treat it "as if", but I think there'd be an appreciation and education I'd get by using a III.
Interestingly, it was CameraQuest, the sister-site to Rangefinderforum.com that really got me jazzed with this article and this research.
As much as I am appreciative of my modern rangefinder, I've found myself fascinated with the simplicity, design and engineering of the Barnack bodies.
I feel like I've been driving a very comfortable Toyota with an automatic transmission and air-conditioning and now I'd like a vintage Porsche.
I know I can always turn off my light-meter, screw on an Elmar, leave the viewfinder guide at 50 mm and treat it "as if", but I think there'd be an appreciation and education I'd get by using a III.
Interestingly, it was CameraQuest, the sister-site to Rangefinderforum.com that really got me jazzed with this article and this research.
As much as I am appreciative of my modern rangefinder, I've found myself fascinated with the simplicity, design and engineering of the Barnack bodies.
I feel like I've been driving a very comfortable Toyota with an automatic transmission and air-conditioning and now I'd like a vintage Porsche.
Last edited:
Vince Lupo
Whatever
If you're looking for a 'budget' Barnack, I'd suggest looking at a IIIa. They are a bit older than the IIIc's, and though there are slight differences in the bodies (different viewfinder/rangefinder window setup, IIIc body is slightly longer and diecast, shutter speeds are a bit different), I don't think you'll notice an appreciable difference. Of course no flash synch.
You could probably find a IIIa body in the $200-$250 range, and maybe a decent 50/3.5 Elmar for around $150, so more or less within your budget.
I'm in your camp in terms of a 'forward' step. I always think of people like Felix Mann, Erich Salomon and others from that era, and consider the amazing photos they were able to achieve with what we'd consider rudimentary equipment (not to mention the film!). We are so coddled by comparison!
You could probably find a IIIa body in the $200-$250 range, and maybe a decent 50/3.5 Elmar for around $150, so more or less within your budget.
I'm in your camp in terms of a 'forward' step. I always think of people like Felix Mann, Erich Salomon and others from that era, and consider the amazing photos they were able to achieve with what we'd consider rudimentary equipment (not to mention the film!). We are so coddled by comparison!
Last edited:
kidblue
Established
I'm reticent to go for an A - From what I've read, the brighter and wider-set viewfinder/rangefinder makes a big difference on the C/F. Or does it?
As far as the equipment change goes - I'm a big W. Eugene Smith fan, as well as Cartier-Bresson and my grandfather was a well-known photographer for the F.S.A during the 30s/40s. I grew up around those images and that ethos. I always thought that the M's I saw them using later in their careers were the equipment that showed they'd "arrived" and were on a different playing field in terms of their kits. Lately, having gotten into the Barnack research, I can actually put myself in their shoes, even if I'll continue to aspire to have their eyes
As far as the equipment change goes - I'm a big W. Eugene Smith fan, as well as Cartier-Bresson and my grandfather was a well-known photographer for the F.S.A during the 30s/40s. I grew up around those images and that ethos. I always thought that the M's I saw them using later in their careers were the equipment that showed they'd "arrived" and were on a different playing field in terms of their kits. Lately, having gotten into the Barnack research, I can actually put myself in their shoes, even if I'll continue to aspire to have their eyes
Last edited:
FPjohn
Well-known
A barnack with moderate wide, 25mm - 35mm, and matching accessory finder(s) is a pleasure.
yours
FPJ
yours
FPJ
Simon Bruxelles
Established
Personally I prefer the minimalist approach of a nice, clean black Leica II. With a collapsible Elmar you can stick it in your pocket. Set the exposure in advance and pre focus and you have the perfect stealth camera for street shooting. And when you aren't taking photographs your camera is a work of art you'll never get tired of admiring.
batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
Welcome to RFF, Noah.
I recommend you try one out before you buy, or at least buy with return privileges. You have a perfectly fine kit, and it's not like Barnacks are going to disappear overnight. So take your time and consider that you may not like the experience at all, no matter what Stephen writes. You could be stuck with your money tied up and ebay or RFF classifieds your only options to recoup it.
My IIIf was right at your $300 point on ebay, with a 3.5cm/2.5 Nikkor. But as it turned out, the RF is very dim, the top two speeds are capping, and there is a light leak somewhere. Still a good deal because of the lens, but not usable until I put more money or (in my case) time into it. If I needed to sell it now, I'd probably be looking at a loss.
I recommend you try one out before you buy, or at least buy with return privileges. You have a perfectly fine kit, and it's not like Barnacks are going to disappear overnight. So take your time and consider that you may not like the experience at all, no matter what Stephen writes. You could be stuck with your money tied up and ebay or RFF classifieds your only options to recoup it.
My IIIf was right at your $300 point on ebay, with a 3.5cm/2.5 Nikkor. But as it turned out, the RF is very dim, the top two speeds are capping, and there is a light leak somewhere. Still a good deal because of the lens, but not usable until I put more money or (in my case) time into it. If I needed to sell it now, I'd probably be looking at a loss.
kidblue
Established
Thanks for the welcome.
I've shot a bit with a Barnack, had my learning-curve tested with the trimming/loading, etc. I found it to be a visceral and meditative experience at best and slightly frustrating at worse. I think I know what I'm getting myself into.
My main concern is your very cautionary tale. I appreciate the sentiment. I'm not looking for a collectible camera, but one that has been used and cared for to the point where the shutter and speeds are at least up to snuff. I have a great guy here in L.A. that does a C.L.A. real quick, and it'll be in the budget (I just had my "new" Voigtlander C.L.A.'d and serious calibration to the tune of $120). Every piece of mechanics requires maintenance and upkeep, but that's why I'm planning on buying a turn-key solution, at least in terms of light-tightness and timing.
Looking at Collectible Cameras, eBay, and this forum, it looks like the going rate for a "user" III C/F is somewhere between $200-$300, and occasionally they pop up with "user" lenses in the $300-range. That's what I'm looking for, with hopefully a more stable, vetted functionality than what you got. I feel for you, man.
I've shot a bit with a Barnack, had my learning-curve tested with the trimming/loading, etc. I found it to be a visceral and meditative experience at best and slightly frustrating at worse. I think I know what I'm getting myself into.
My main concern is your very cautionary tale. I appreciate the sentiment. I'm not looking for a collectible camera, but one that has been used and cared for to the point where the shutter and speeds are at least up to snuff. I have a great guy here in L.A. that does a C.L.A. real quick, and it'll be in the budget (I just had my "new" Voigtlander C.L.A.'d and serious calibration to the tune of $120). Every piece of mechanics requires maintenance and upkeep, but that's why I'm planning on buying a turn-key solution, at least in terms of light-tightness and timing.
Looking at Collectible Cameras, eBay, and this forum, it looks like the going rate for a "user" III C/F is somewhere between $200-$300, and occasionally they pop up with "user" lenses in the $300-range. That's what I'm looking for, with hopefully a more stable, vetted functionality than what you got. I feel for you, man.
batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
Sorry if that sounded like complaining; I wasn't. I have plenty of kit to keep me going until I fix those issues, and the lens will be used on the FED in the meantime, anyway.
All I'm saying is there are many things that can go wrong. Budgeting for a CLA is a good idea, in general, but you rarely save any money compared to buying a good, working camera to begin with. Leave those "I don't know anything about cameras but it says Leica D.R.P." ebay listings to buyers who can afford to gamble and/or do their own repairs. Buy where you get a full description of all the important functions. In your situation, I think the RFF classifieds (two under $400 incl. lens listed right now) and KEH should be your first stops.
All I'm saying is there are many things that can go wrong. Budgeting for a CLA is a good idea, in general, but you rarely save any money compared to buying a good, working camera to begin with. Leave those "I don't know anything about cameras but it says Leica D.R.P." ebay listings to buyers who can afford to gamble and/or do their own repairs. Buy where you get a full description of all the important functions. In your situation, I think the RFF classifieds (two under $400 incl. lens listed right now) and KEH should be your first stops.
kidblue
Established
I'd be complaining if I were you, so kudos for having the wherewithal to shine some perspective.
The classifieds here seem to be great, and I've looked at those current offerings, which are pretty darn close to what I'm looking for. I've also heard good things about CollectibleCameras.com out of Arizona, especially compared to some of the lacking inventory on KEH. Thoughts?
The classifieds here seem to be great, and I've looked at those current offerings, which are pretty darn close to what I'm looking for. I've also heard good things about CollectibleCameras.com out of Arizona, especially compared to some of the lacking inventory on KEH. Thoughts?
Vince Lupo
Whatever
Not really -- I've been using Barnacks for 30 years (started with a IIIc Sharkskin, and still have the III that I got when I was 22), and preferred using those 'older' ones (just a personal preference). Just depends on what you're used to, or what you're wiling to get used to.
The post war IIIc's are okay, and certainly cheap enough, given the issues they had with chroming at that time. Any of them should be fine. Don't know about doing hard-core photojournalism with these cameras, but I suppose you can try (after all, that's what they used 70 years ago!).
Collectible Cameras is a good outfit -- Sandy, Bill and the gang are all really nice and very honest. The nice thing about them is that they can talk to you about that specific camera they have advertised, whether the rangefinder contrast is dim, how the shutter speeds are etc. KEH can't offer that, though I've never really had any problems with KEH. Collectible Cameras are more pricey though, and I know that I've overpaid on some items that I've gotten from them. But if there is a problem with anything you buy from them, they would be more than accommodating. KEH is very reputable as well, so really either place is fine. Just that with KEH, they can't exactly go and pull that specific camera off the shelf and talk to you about it.
Vince Lupo
Whatever
Leica II's are good too -- if you don't mind not having neckstrap eyelets. So you'd either have to carry it around in your hands or with a wrist strap screwed into the tripod socket, or you'd have to use some kind of ever ready case.
I always wanted a II, but the lack of strap eyelets made me think otherwise. Here again, all depends on what you're used to, or willing to get used to.....
I always wanted a II, but the lack of strap eyelets made me think otherwise. Here again, all depends on what you're used to, or willing to get used to.....
I find using a barnak Leica very unsettling. The split squinty finder drives me nuts.
May I suggest in place of the IIIc or IIIf a Canon P? The finder will be what you are used to with your R, build quality is on par with a Leica, and it will be less expensive, but at worst equal in cost to the IIIc.
May I suggest in place of the IIIc or IIIf a Canon P? The finder will be what you are used to with your R, build quality is on par with a Leica, and it will be less expensive, but at worst equal in cost to the IIIc.
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
I like the look of Barnacks a lot, and I've been about to get one of them more than once, but I've gone once and again for another kind of camera... I think they can be used for some situations, but for fast street shooting, for me and others maybe, a Barnack would clearly be a step back... In general I see them more appropriate for shooting non-changing scenes or scenes that last longer... Not that I think they can't be used at all: I just think they can be too slow some of the times... If you consider them better than Ms, for sure you know the reasons why, but I see no benefit really... Just for curiosity I'd like to understand your reasons... I might get one someday...
Cheers,
Juan
Cheers,
Juan
tyrone.s
Well-known
I did much the same thing as kidblue. I started off with a Bessa R and then got an old FED and then bought a really nice IIIf. I was on a bit of 'purity' kick I think. Using these old cameras did teach me to really master some important basics.
Um. I didn't end up using the IIIf as much as I expected. However I was recently running a roll through it and was really surprised at how usable the RF/VF was and in particular how accurate the focusing is (considering the EBL versus my Hexar RF and especially my Bessa). It really struck me how images seemed to snap into focus - albeit in a very small area!). If you want to try a more basic light tight box (and do some extra thinking) then a IIIf or similar will be a fun experience.
I wouldn't worry too much about RF brightness though. This sort of camera screams hyperfocal focusing and a good sense of the correct exposure and you will definitely grab plenty of action shots that capture the moment! Even when framing with the finder. Good luck.
Using these old cameras did teach me to really master some important basics.Um. I didn't end up using the IIIf as much as I expected. However I was recently running a roll through it and was really surprised at how usable the RF/VF was and in particular how accurate the focusing is (considering the EBL versus my Hexar RF and especially my Bessa). It really struck me how images seemed to snap into focus - albeit in a very small area!). If you want to try a more basic light tight box (and do some extra thinking) then a IIIf or similar will be a fun experience.
I wouldn't worry too much about RF brightness though. This sort of camera screams hyperfocal focusing and a good sense of the correct exposure and you will definitely grab plenty of action shots that capture the moment! Even when framing with the finder. Good luck.
I like Barnacks for two reasons:
Size...easily pocketable with a collapsible Elmar.
1.5x rangefinder magnification.
Canon P is nice but it's M-sized.
Yes, there are separate windows for focus and view on a Barnack, but I don't find that to be a problem. The 1.5x makes for very accurate focusing (compared to even a regular M at 0.72.)
tyrone.s is right, these cameras are built for hyperfocal. I use a 28 or 35 lens, and a 28/35 minifinder on a 1f...which has no viewfinder or rangefinder at all.
Size...easily pocketable with a collapsible Elmar.
1.5x rangefinder magnification.
Canon P is nice but it's M-sized.
Yes, there are separate windows for focus and view on a Barnack, but I don't find that to be a problem. The 1.5x makes for very accurate focusing (compared to even a regular M at 0.72.)
tyrone.s is right, these cameras are built for hyperfocal. I use a 28 or 35 lens, and a 28/35 minifinder on a 1f...which has no viewfinder or rangefinder at all.
Frank Petronio
Well-known
Just be patient and watch for a $250 IIIc with a recent Youxin Ye CLA to pop up or better yet, ask Youxin himself for one. If he installs a new beamsplitter it's perfect.
Then watch for a "good" proven Russian Elmar copy or a reasonable 50/3.5 Elmar to come along.
Don't waste your time or money on any accessories or any of that BS.
Then watch for a "good" proven Russian Elmar copy or a reasonable 50/3.5 Elmar to come along.
Don't waste your time or money on any accessories or any of that BS.
Luddite Frank
Well-known
My "daily driver" camera is a 1934 Leica III, chrome. Grabbed it on eBay for about $140, and it came with a Komura 35mm lens.
The chrome on the top-plate is kind of ratty in places, but it's in good working order.
Be wary of unrestored post-war -c/ -f Barnacks: due to material shortage / quality issues following the war, they had issues with chrome plating and with shutter curtains.
The early -f s seem particularly plagued with bad curtain material (goes crackly / light leaks).
My first two Barnacks were from Collectible Cameras - a beautiful III-f and a very nice black II.
The curtains in the III-f began to disintegrate after the third roll of film. It needs curtains and a CLA.
I don't think the VF/RF on the -f cameras is any better than those on the earlier Barnacks, except that the two windows are closer together.
The III-g cameras may be another story.
The best advantage of the -c / -f cameras is the cast body, which is supposedly sturdier than the earlier models, with their built-up brass bodies.
I would suggest expanding your search to include the II & variants, as well as the III / IIIa / IIIb...
Good luck !
The chrome on the top-plate is kind of ratty in places, but it's in good working order.
Be wary of unrestored post-war -c/ -f Barnacks: due to material shortage / quality issues following the war, they had issues with chrome plating and with shutter curtains.
The early -f s seem particularly plagued with bad curtain material (goes crackly / light leaks).
My first two Barnacks were from Collectible Cameras - a beautiful III-f and a very nice black II.
The curtains in the III-f began to disintegrate after the third roll of film. It needs curtains and a CLA.
I don't think the VF/RF on the -f cameras is any better than those on the earlier Barnacks, except that the two windows are closer together.
The III-g cameras may be another story.
The best advantage of the -c / -f cameras is the cast body, which is supposedly sturdier than the earlier models, with their built-up brass bodies.
I would suggest expanding your search to include the II & variants, as well as the III / IIIa / IIIb...
Good luck !
bigeye
Well-known
You've got a good rig now. You're obviously not considering a Barnack for greater speed or image quality. I rec that you save for the M that seems to be what you ultimately want. Relatively, it's only a couple bucks more.