Leica LTM New Barnack shooter looking for guidance in the III's

Leica M39 screw mount bodies/lenses
I agree with the "get one from Youxin" camp. He prices reasonably, the camera will be great.

I love my IIIf. I never use flash, though. It's my main camera.
 
Frank Petronio said:
Just be patient and watch for a $250 IIIc with a recent Youxin Ye CLA to pop up or better yet, ask Youxin himself for one. If he installs a new beamsplitter it's perfect.

Then watch for a "good" proven Russian Elmar copy or a reasonable 50/3.5 Elmar to come along.

Don't waste your time or money on any accessories or any of that BS.
Click to expand...

I'd say that's good advice. IIIc is a lot of bang for the buck. Try to be sure you get one with good shutter curtains though. And a CLA in the not too distant past, if possible.
 
If you need a Barnack style camera and don't mind the lack of a light meter or the increased picture taking time, get a Canon IVSb2.

The IVSb2 is the same size and shape as the Leica IIIC/F/G. It however has one larger eyepiece that combines both RF and VF functions. It also has 3 selectable levels of VF/RF magnification. These three choices approximate 50mm, 90/100mm, and 135mm VFs. THe only external VF needed is for wide angles. The top shutter speed is 1/1000. The shutter speed setting always points to the index before and after the shutter is tripped. Ihave two Canon "Barnacks" and they are smoother than the Leica M3s I have played with. This camera earned the adage "A better Leica than Leica".

The Leica IIIF is too squinty for me. The separate RF/VF windows drives me nuts. However the script on top plate is prettier than the Canon's. The Leica can also adjust the flash sync delay, if you use the old flash bulbs. The Canon's is only "X" speed.

Here is the link to SG's article about the Canon RFs.
 
Awesome replies, gang. Thanks for all the insight.

After reading all these thoughts, I've given it some thought myself. The thing is, I don't want an M. If I wanted an M, I'd save up and buy an M, or a R2M. I love my R and I can't imagine using an M or R2M for anything more than additional lenses. The impetus behind the Barnack is to work with equipment that will be basic but beautiful. I also would appreciate the huge rangefinder - Even with my young, spry eyes, I often have trouble with the small viewfinder on my R - Framing is less important to me, although I'm interested in experiencing the split set-up as much as the cut-and-load. My concern about anything non-Leica is the inevitable servicing. I've got a great guy here in L.A., but I can't imagine him working on anything non-modern or non-Leica.

Like an above poster, tyrone.s, I'm doing this as a "purity" kick - This is about broadening a horizon, making my brain work a little harder and buying into a pretty significant piece of history. I'd love to make this a camera I could use everyday, and there seem to be plenty of folks who rock Barnacks regularly, but I'm well-award that there's going to be a significant investment of time and learning-curve to get there. I guess that's why I'm trying to do my best picking out the actual equipment - I'd like to at least know my camera's in working order, even if I'm not quite yet.

So is the general consensus that if I don't mind the spacing of the viewfinder and rangefinder, there's no reason to avoid a III/IIIA or even a II? My only concern about those was the brightness. If that's not a concern, I'll broaden my search. I don't mind about the die-cast body since that's rarely anything but cosmetically displeasing.

I'm intrigued by Youxin - A little searching and Googling and he seems to be the guy everyone turns to. What's the best way to approach him with a request for a solid IIIC?

Thanks again for the warm welcome, happy Dad Day to the dads here and looking forward to more insight and education.

N.
 
I recently bought a canon bottom loader to try out the barnack style cameras. It's not as fast as an M that's for sure but I already knew that going in.

The canon bottom loading series have integrated viewfinder/rangefinders which is really useful. The finish on those cameras hold up well to their leica counterparts. Also the spring loaded take up spool is quite handy when you need to load film, its quite easy to remove with just a turn of a knob.

That type of camera to me is the camera to bring when I only want one body. When I'm out shooting I carry two loaded M's with two different focal lengths.
 
Frank Petronio said:
Just be patient and watch for a $250 IIIc with a recent Youxin Ye CLA to pop up or better yet, ask Youxin himself for one. If he installs a new beamsplitter it's perfect.

Then watch for a "good" proven Russian Elmar copy or a reasonable 50/3.5 Elmar to come along.

Don't waste your time or money on any accessories or any of that BS.
Click to expand...

This is very good advice. I bought a IIIc from a member here for a very reasonable price a year or so ago. Earlier this year, I sent it to Youxin Ye for an overhaul (CLA plus replacement shutter curtains and a new beamsplitter). It's a joy to use now. I use it w/ either an Elmar 50/3.5 or a CV 50/2.5. Very compact, rugged, high quality camera, and not expensive.

My thought on the IIIc versus IIIf question is that you should go for a good sample of either camera at a price w/in your range, and not worry about which model it is. However, the suggestion of a Canon IVsb2 also merits careful consideration.

Good luck, and welcome to the forum!
 
I've used Barnacks since 1982. Mine have included If, IIf, IIIf, and IIIg. Right now I have two: a If and a IIIf. I also have an M3-MOT and a M4-P.

I use a Leicavit with the If and the IIIf.

The If is used with the Voigtlander 15mm lens. Since the 15mm is NOT RF coupled, no need of a RF window thus the If is perfert for the 15mm lens

The IIIf is used with the Voigtlander 21mm (it is RF coupled so the IIIf RF comes in handy). I also use a 50mm lens with the IIIf when I want to travel light.

The Barnacks are perfect for wide angle lenses that need aux finders. Why put a 21mm on my M4-P and still have to use an aux finder? The IIIf is a much better solution especialy with the Leicavit attached.


All my Leicas have ben serviced by DAG. Plan on $300 for a proper service of a IIIf. It is well worth the price.
 
After several years of enjoying my M4, I finally added a Barnack to the mix. I was motivated by their appearance, the so-called purity, touching those historical roots, and something smaller in size. The die-cast bodies look less pretty and are incrementally larger. I therefore assessed the pre-IIIc models, starting with the III(D) that offered low speeds and RF. From there, the III(F) added diopter control. The III(G) a.k.a. IIIa added the 1/1000s shutter speed. The IIIb added the spring-loaded shoe and the adjoined RF/VF viewports. The shutter-dial platform of the IIIa/b is sharply bevelled - very pretty. The IIIb and early IIIc have a pretty diopter control. These observations are muddied by the many upgrades performed on older bodies (many by Leitz).

A problem with prewar models is lack of flash support, although strange options exist (factory or third party). Some bodies have have suffered Frankenstein surgery to bring a PC contact to the surface. Finally, an external VF solves the problem of squinty inbuilt VF. For that reason, the widely-separated viewports of the IIIa and earlier may win for ease of use.

iiib.jpg
 
For a user consider the IIf. This poor relation sells for less than it's brothers and gives one the chance to own a later camera for less. They can often be found in good condition.

Do you really need slow speeds?

Michael
 
To answer the last question - Yes. I never thought that I did until I started seeing material I'd been "forced" to shoot at 1/4 or 1/8 and found it acceptable in more cases than I'd anticipated.

From what I'm reading (and what y'all are putting down for me), it's looking like I want a well-loved IIIC. That seems to be the best bet for something rugged, durable, serviceable and consistently high-quality.

Out of curiosity - If I did purchase something a little more bare-bones, what would I expect to pay someone like Youxin Ye for an overhaul C.L.A plus replacement shutter curtains and a new beamsplitter, etc.? My Bessa has cost anywhere from $90-$150 for C.L.A, even with major out-of-whack rangefinder adjustments, but I assume a III would cost a bit more, especially considering the shutter, etc. Where can I find more information on Youxin?

The more I think about it, the less I'm also worried about the finder split after the B - Although what's the consensus on the die-cast bodies? I know they aren't as good-looking, but are they the same in terms of design? Do they affect function?
 
The IIIa finder is no dimmer than the IIIc, if anything it has a right to be brighter, since it isn't reflected twice through a prism to make the eyepieces closer.

The IIIa is also lighter than the IIIc. The IIIc is easier to maintain and adjust -- there's a lot more skill/workmanship needed to get a reasonably accurate 1/1000 shutter speed on a IIIa.

With a lot of older Leica lenses only stopping down to f/12.5, the 1/1000 shutter speed is very useful with ISO 400 film outdoors. That's why I'd skip the III or earlier.
 
From all these recommendations, I'm thinking that the IIIC is going to be the winner in terms of usability/reliability and price.
 
kidblue,

You might have seen this page before:

http://cameraquest.com/VC3f.htm

I know they are not barnacks for most people... :) The two times I've decided to buy a Barnack, I've finally bought a black T. Lighter, more comfortable and more capable tools... Can use both LTM and M lenses... Maybe the same or very close photographical experience from the shooter point of view? I baby mine hoping I won't have to CLA them in my life... I use them with and without finders, and with lenses from 15 to 90, metering or guessing... They're A LOT OF FUN!

Cheers,

Juan
 
I've thought about going for a T.
I definitely appreciate the modernity of them, the metering (although I'm trying to learn to be my own meter) and obviously, the versatility. Thing is, I dig my screw-mounts - I'll go into a mountain of debt if given an M-mount camera - And it's still cheaper to grab a IIIC in useable condition with a 50 mm Russian lens, isn't it? I'd also miss the viewfinder, even if it is a hassle on the Barnack - It'll keep me from having to invest in one right-away.
I feel like I have the modern world covered with my R, now it's time to pay a little respect to who put me there, Mr. Barnack :)
All that said, I do agree that the T is a more "sensical" choice. If I didn't have an R, I'd likely go for it.
Does all that make sense or am I being a big baby and should just grab a T?
 
No, a Barnack is a Leica from other times, and the T simply is not there... I'd like to have two Barnacks with two 50 3.5s. If one day I stop shooting what I plan to be shooting for some years, I might get them for slower scenes... An advantage of my Ts is their light weight: when I carry other 2 or 3 cameras and lenses, sometimes I carry also my two Ts loaded with different B&W film for sun and shadows (one body with cap) just for using my 15mm Heliar anywhere anytime of the day... I get a lot for the light weight I carry... Good luck and fun with your III...

Cheers,

Juan
 
I can't see much point to going to the later models for a Barnack for fun camera. I'd say go for a 30's model II for the purity of the thing and look at the IIIa for the version with trimmings like RF telescope, strap lugs and the slower speeds.

The advantage of these models is that you can get the Elmar for a song and, being uncoated, you've a good chance of getting one that's clean or cleanable without having to dig deep into your pockets. The Russian ones are also good (and the J-8 is extra good) but not so "pure". The FED and Zorki lenses will also cause problems with lens caps and hoods. Although an Industar 61 LD with the rectangular hood is a very pleasant experience.

And, of course, whatever mixture you chose you'll have the problem of "off-scale" speeds and apertures. That means a lot of mental arithmetic, a cumbersome chart or else an elderly meter with the old speeds ad apertures on it. They are dirt cheap but will probably need an overhaul; the old Westons are great.

Talking of lenses, you've also a choice of the "Summar" or "Summitar" on the II or IIIa: if after a pure 1930's look/outfit. My experience of the "Summar" was that the first had a lot of money wasted on it and was never any good. The second, on ebay, was a good'un and I don't regret buying it. It's also nice to have the outfit shown in the 1930's adverts in the magazines.

The "Summitar" can be uncoated and very good or coated and very, very good. But there's a slight risk with coated as it could be coated by some else and not by Leitz. They can be a pita: again I speak from bitter experience. And getting a hood for one can be difficult, as there's two types...

Other things you should know are that you can't trust anyone on ebay where Leicas are concerned, it's a lottery. So be prepared for an expensive repair or check etc. There's also things like light leaks that need a film through the camera before they are noticed and then there's blinds with pin holes and so on.

Then there's the lens hood and lens cap, which can wreck your budget.

And finding an instruction book can be expensive for an antique (perhaps) or for one of the reprints. (Only the IIIa version seems to be available.)

Shoulder straps for the IIIa can be found in leather of the right colour and size on binoculars in flea markets, for flea market prices and you get a pair of binoculars thrown into the package. And old fashioned cobblers can make them for you (and they can repair 30's ERC's).

A case can also be difficult. I like anonymous ones and getting one can be time consuming. Look for the real article and you'll be lucky to find one that hasn't been knocked about over the years. A complete strip down and restitching can be either expensive or time-consuming. If you know what you are doing about a day or more's work.

I hope this isn't too much of a downer. I know how you feel about going back to our roots - so to speak - and I'll wish you luck.

Regards, David

PS I agree with those who suggested the ex-USSR FED or Zorki I's. They look like Leica II's and are dirt cheap. You can pick them up in the original box, with lens, lens cap and lens hoods easily. And Oleg will get them working like new for a very reasonable amount. But they will whet your appetite for a Barnack and lead you astray into FED 2's and so on...
 
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