New Found Folder Love

[FallisPhoto]

Intellectually, I love 'em. In the real world, I find that almost all of them are disappointingly unsharp, whether as a result of sheer old age or the inherent problem of front-cell focusing. Tonally lovely, yes. Sharp, very rarely. Frances and I currently own about half a dozen, and none of 'em comes near our rigid-bodied cameras (such as Polaroid 600SE or Graflex XL) or TLRS (even Lyubitel) or 'baby' Linhofs or our 4x5 cameras with roll-film backs.

Tashi delek,

R.

1. ALL of my folders are sharper than Lubitels. I used to have a couple of Lubitels -- I sold them, along with some of my other crappy cameras, and I kept the better cameras, including several folders.
2. Not all folders have front cell focusing.
3. With the exception of some of the rare earth lenses, like Takumars, age itself has no effect on the functionality of a camera, it is the amount of abuse it has seen that can loosen parts up. If a strut or standard is loose, you can install a new rivet/bolt that fits better or you can use a shrinking pick to slightly shorten the struts.

Edit: You have the choice of either buying cameras that are in good condition or learning some metal working. If you don't, then don't blame the equipment.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Hang on, folks. I said almost all, not all -- and I gave legitimate reasons. Front-cell focus can't be as sharp as unit focus, and I didn't say that all folders have front-cell focus. Likewise I specifically mentioned old age because wear and tear can take quite a toll on strut mechanisms: much more than on rigid bodies, usually. I'll add something I didn't say earlier, which is that many older folders were designed for contact prints, not enlargements, and that even 'three-up' (which is admittedly 6x9 inches or so) may reveal shortcomings in the lenses, or film flatness, or both.

Too many people were eager to read my comments as a blanket condemnation of folders, which a re-reading of my original post will show was not the case. See also my post to Krosya, about the best being excellent. My real point is that many people have unrealistic expectations of ancient cameras with wobbly struts and front-cell-focus triplets. If you want a good folder you are going to have to look for one that was (a) good to start with and (b) is still in good order. Or, as Fallisphoto says, learn to repair 'em.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Jamie123]

Not necessarily. Tonality may be at least as large an argument for some people.

Cheers,

R.

Exactly!

@FallisPhoto: Using a tripod is not a matter of what film format you use, it's a matter of what kind of photography you do. As long as the camera allows it there's no reason not to shoot handheld.

The battery argument is still not a convincing one. Only because you are likely to forget them doesn't mean everyone else is. I've never had a problem with forgetting a battery. I have, however, had a lens's shutter fail during a shoot and unlike with a missing battery I wasn't able to quickly go to the supermarket and get another one.

Besides, most cameras (Bessa III included) have an indicator to tell you when the battery is low.

 

[Steve M.]

Actually, my Bessa II w/ Color Heliar lens takes better photos than my Rolleiflex w/ 2.8 Xenotar, so I'm pretty sure it's a Hassy eater too, but everyone's eyes are different. There's a reason these lenses are legendary. Although my Welta Weltur is my preferred photo taker (as I like 6x6), realistically Welta never had a lens the equal of a Heliar. Or a Summicron for that matter.

 

[FallisPhoto]

FallisPhoto: Using a tripod is not a matter of what film format you use, it's a matter of what kind of photography you do. As long as the camera allows it there's no reason not to shoot handheld.

Everything I am saying is based on my personal experience. With the types of photography I do, serious shooting without a tripod is not usually a good idea. Now the casual stuff, yeah, I can shoot handheld. When I shoot handheld though, I usually go to either a 35mm (Retinas, Karats, Super Baldinas, and etcetera) or a medium format with zone focusing.

The battery argument is still not a convincing one. Only because you are likely to forget them doesn't mean everyone else is. I've never had a problem with forgetting a battery. I have, however, had a lens's shutter fail during a shoot and unlike with a missing battery I wasn't able to quickly go to the supermarket and get another one.

Besides, most cameras (Bessa III included) have an indicator to tell you when the battery is low.

My argument was that the more stuff you can forget, the more likely it is that you will eventually forget some of it. That's just common sense.

 

[Jamie123]

My argument was that the more stuff you can forget, the more likely it is that you will eventually forget some of it. That's just common sense.

My point is that the more essential the battery is for the camera's operation (i.e. not just for the lightmeter), the more likely you are to remember. Besides, like I said, the camera has a battery indicator so if you're out in the field and it shows that the battery is low, chances are that you'll be able to continue shooting until you get home or get near a store.

My point is also that as much as people like to praise mechanical cameras, they have their downsides, too. I've once had a shutter in a Hasselblad lens start sticking in the middle of a shoot which I only noticed after I got back the negs from the lab. With electronics most of the times you know when they fail.

Anyways, can we lay this to rest? (Now that I had the last word )

 

[Roger Hicks]

it wasnt my intention to 'have a go' at you Roger. i just felt that the few short lines you wrote with period stops between could be easily interpreted by some people that have little experiance with folders or wanting to try them out, as presenting an argument that in general folders give poor results ,i.e "Intellectually, I love 'em. In the real world, I find that almost all of them are disappointingly unsharp". i read as, more or less, ok for a person with an inquiring mind (perhaps from a historical aspect) but in the actual practice of photography they are very disappointing or have little practical use.

so, my comments were an attempt to provide more holistic view or an alternative argument (not in the bar room sense or squabbling sense), to in part address why you might of had some unsatisfying results and to others that might be interested in MF folders, including the relatively new OP RFF member (new to folders at least), that many folders can and do produce excellent results, contrary to what your post might have given the impression. i did point out that you made exceptions, i just wanted to highlight them.

very true also that many folders (particularly the early folders, and low end consumer models) where originally primarily used for contact prints, though many of the higher end models were also expected that enlargements would be made. thats one of the benefits to using folders as much as 80-100 years on, film has advanced so much since those early years it brings folders now a whole new lease of life

Dear Andrew,

No offence taken! It's just that some proponents of folders (not you) speak as if they were a 'magic bullet' and ignore the point that distressingly many either weren't much good to start with or are now badly worn.

This doesn't apply only to folders. There are a lot of other cameras that were frankly pretty indifferent when they were new, but which have been lent enchantment by age and are now revered as 'classics'. For that matter, the same goes for motorcycles, cars, or almost almost any other mechanical contrivance from the past: things we bought as young men merely because they were cheap and they were all we could afford, not because they were any good. In many cases, we got rid of them as soon as we could, with a sigh of relief, and bought something better, and it's quite funny to see such things being praised nowadays.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Ernst Dinkla]

My choice to get the Bessa III has a few reasons, one of them being my recent acquisition of a Canon 5DII. The Canon will from now on take over for paid work, pushing film into the personal domain. When shooting for myself I just don't like to carry around 15lbs of gear, especially not when travelling. If size were no issue I'd have gone with a Mamiya RZ long ago which, IMO, is a nicer camera.

With a smaller budget than your's I made a similar decision. Got the 5DMKII+24-105 and kept the Iskra + Bessa I for the time being. The weight of the Canon has been no problem so far and it does a lot more than any folder including the Bessa III. So I guess I'm more or less saying that all the MF folders I have will go on sale one day. The Polaroid Pathfinders not yet but that's near LF and I like to convert them to odd frame sizes when I need a tinker project.

Ernst Dinkla

 

[FallisPhoto]

My point is that the more essential the battery is for the camera's operation (i.e. not just for the lightmeter), the more likely you are to remember. Besides, like I said, the camera has a battery indicator so if you're out in the field and it shows that the battery is low, chances are that you'll be able to continue shooting until you get home or get near a store.

If I recall correctly though, you once suggested that film might be forgotten. How much more easily might you forget to bring a battery? When doing a nude photoshoot about two miles deep in a forest, where you've found a mountain streem, an old cabin, some unusually photogenic rock formations, and/or a waterfall, you can't just ask everyone to wait while you trot off to the store for a battery.

My point is also that as much as people like to praise mechanical cameras, they have their downsides, too. I've once had a shutter in a Hasselblad lens start sticking in the middle of a shoot which I only noticed after I got back the negs from the lab. With electronics most of the times you know when they fail.

With periodic maintenance, that shouldn't happen, AND that was just crud in a shutter that needed cleaning. You're surely not seriously suggesting that electronically controlled shutters never need cleaning, are you? Now here's another factor: Electronics almost invariably fail long before mechanics do.

Anyways, can we lay this to rest? (Now that I had the last word )

Of course not! I never quit until I feel an enemy's arteries parting between my teeth, and I'm shocked that you'd suggest it!

 

[FallisPhoto]

Dear Andrew,

No offence taken! It's just that some proponents of folders (not you) speak as if they were a 'magic bullet' and ignore the point that distressingly many either weren't much good to start with or are now badly worn.

This doesn't apply only to folders. There are a lot of other cameras that were frankly pretty indifferent when they were new, but which have been lent enchantment by age and are now revered as 'classics'. For that matter, the same goes for motorcycles, cars, or almost almost any other mechanical contrivance from the past: things we bought as young men merely because they were cheap and they were all we could afford, not because they were any good. In many cases, we got rid of them as soon as we could, with a sigh of relief, and bought something better, and it's quite funny to see such things being praised nowadays.

Cheers,

R.

This reminds me of a thread I started a long time ago on which were the best of the three-element lenses. It went on for about three or four pages. Only three got mentioned consistently, and one was a Leica (no surprise there). The others were the Zeiss Novar and the Steinheil Cassar. The Cassar took me by surprise -- I hadn't expected that one. I had expected the Apotar to do well too, but some peoole liked it and some didn't. I figured that most people did a spotty job of recollimation. The necessity of taking it apart during restoration requires readjusting the lens and if you are not dead on with that, then (of course) it isn't going to do very well.

Edit: So yeah, I've seen posts praising cameras with Agnars, Wollensack Anastigmats, Radionars and etc. You just have to figure that those guys (1) got one hell of a fluke lens, or (2) are very easily satisfied, or (3) don't have much experience.

 

[Krosya]

Actually, my Bessa II w/ Color Heliar lens takes better photos than my Rolleiflex w/ 2.8 Xenotar, so I'm pretty sure it's a Hassy eater too, but everyone's eyes are different. There's a reason these lenses are legendary. Although my Welta Weltur is my preferred photo taker (as I like 6x6), realistically Welta never had a lens the equal of a Heliar. Or a Summicron for that matter.

I used to have Bessa 6x9 - black one with coupled RF and Skopar lens that could deliver decent results:

 

[Roger Hicks]

This reminds me of a thread I started a long time ago on which were the best of the three-element lenses. It went on for about three or four pages. Only three got mentioned consistently, and one was a Leica (no surprise there). The others were the Zeiss Novar and the Steinheil Cassar. The Cassar took me by surprise -- I hadn't expected that one. I had expected the Apotar to do well too, but some peoole liked it and some didn't. I figured that most people did a spotty job of recollimation. The necessity of taking it apart during restoration requires readjusting the lens and if you are not dead on with that, then (of course) it isn't going to do very well.

This makes eminent sense. I'm sure that the folders I had in the 70s often gave better results than the ones I've had lately, and this ain't just because they were 30 years newer! The good ones were normally untouched or had been professionally overhauled/repaired in those days. Nowadays, the bad ones are just as bad, or worse, from wear and tear or neglect or both, and many of the good ones have suffered because more people are willing to butcher precision machinery that they don't actually understand...

Cheers,

R.

 

[Jamie123]

If I recall correctly though, you once suggested that film might be forgotten. How much more easily might you forget to bring a battery? When doing a nude photoshoot about two miles deep in a forest, where you've found a mountain streem, an old cabin, some unusually photogenic rock formations, and/or a waterfall, you can't just ask everyone to wait while you trot off to the store for a battery.

I said that film is also something that could potentially be forgotten but yet very few people actually go out to shoot and forget the film.

But just let me get this straight. You are suggesting that someone would set up a nude photoshoot in a forest and then forget the batteries? Really?? In this case you would deserve to fail.

With periodic maintenance, that shouldn't happen, AND that was just crud in a shutter that needed cleaning. You're surely not seriously suggesting that electronically controlled shutters never need cleaning, are you? Now here's another factor: Electronics almost invariably fail long before mechanics do.

It wasn't crud in the shutter but a spring that lost tension. My point is that mechanical cameras fail slowly (e.g. speeds getting slower) while electronical cameras usually fail suddenly.
I'm not knocking mechanical cameras. I love them and there's a fascination involved with such devices. A $500'000 Tourbillon watch is not as accurate as the watch in my mobile phone but that's not the reason people buy them.
There just seems to be an unreasonable fear that electronically controlled cameras will be turned into useless paperweights the second they forget to bring a battery. Instead one should realize that things can go wrong all the time. Film can get lost, get ruined at the lab, you can load the wrong iso etc. etc.. A missed shot is not the end of the world.

Of course not! I never quit until I feel an enemy's arteries parting between my teeth, and I'm shocked that you'd suggest it!

Bring it on!

 

[Andrew Howes]

I count myself an addict now also, with nice user condition 645 ikonta, a recently aquired ansco VP#2 (nice old time look to that one, though quite sharp and very useable). They all have a bit of their own character to them. Now that I got my iskra sort of working, I got me another project, a Hapo 66e which is totally stuffed right down to the seive like bellows, it will drive me nuts fixing it or become another pinhole camera (another of my vices.) unless someone else wants a bash at it.
Krosya, those weltas are gorgeous. Must resist.

 

[FallisPhoto]

But just let me get this straight. You are suggesting that someone would set up a nude photoshoot in a forest and then forget the batteries? Really?? In this case you would deserve to fail.

It happened one time, years ago. I was using a Pentax K1000 at that time. In a K1000, the meter works by deflecting a needle from a central position, so a dead battery can masquerade as a correct meter reading. Mine did and it took me about three shots to realize that something was wrong. Fortunately, I also had a Gossen Lunapro Digital F handheld meter and was able to continue the shoot in spite of a dead battery in the camera. I learned my lesson and now I not only take extra batteries (for the meter) but I take up to three cameras with me now (and about 20 rolls of film). The thing is, it does happen and if I had happened to have a completely electronic camera with me I'd have just been screwed.

It wasn't crud in the shutter but a spring that lost tension. My point is that mechanical cameras fail slowly (e.g. speeds getting slower) while electronical cameras usually fail suddenly.

Yes, but slow shutters can be adjusted for. You don't have to stop. You might have to bracket a bit more, but you can keep on shooting. Dead cameras leave you dead in the water. I do not want to be in the middle of a shoot with a camera that just suddenly stops working (that's why, even with mechanical cameras, I bring backups).

I'm not knocking mechanical cameras. I love them and there's a fascination involved with such devices. A $500'000 Tourbillon watch is not as accurate as the watch in my mobile phone but that's not the reason people buy them.
There just seems to be an unreasonable fear that electronically controlled cameras will be turned into useless paperweights the second they forget to bring a battery. Instead one should realize that things can go wrong all the time. Film can get lost, get ruined at the lab, you can load the wrong iso etc. etc.. A missed shot is not the end of the world.

It can sure seem like it.

Bring it on!

 

[Jamie123]

Yes, but slow shutters can be adjusted for. You don't have to stop. You might have to bracket a bit more, but you can keep on shooting. Dead cameras leave you dead in the water. I do not want to be in the middle of a shoot with a camera that just suddenly stops working (that's why, even with mechanical cameras, I bring backups).

There's no adjustment for leaf shutters that won't close. But yeah, you should always have backups unless you shoot at a studio with in-house rental.

It can sure seem like it.

It's not. A huge pain, yes, but not the end of the world. If it's really important you can always do a reshoot.



Told you I'd have the last word, didn't I?

 

[FallisPhoto]

There's no adjustment for leaf shutters that won't close. But yeah, you should always have backups unless you shoot at a studio with in-house rental.

Funny, I thought a significant portion of my income came from adjusting leaf shutters that won't close. That particular adjustment is called a CLA, and I can do a quick and dirty shutter flush in the field, if I have to. Generally speaking, I take better care of my cameras than that and I've never had a disaster that gummed up a shutter all at once. Maybe if I accidentally dropped it into a pot of hot grease?

It's not. A huge pain, yes, but not the end of the world. If it's really important you can always do a reshoot.

Better not to have to.

Told you I'd have the last word, didn't I?

Yes, you did say that -- but you haven't done it yet.

 

[hanskerensky]

Hi Ijsegil,

Hope you enjoy your "folder-fever" as much as i do.

It's really interesting to use these oldies and (re-)learn the lessons about the basics of photography.

On Flickr you can find a group dedicated to these folders. Look here :
http://www.flickr.com/groups/folding/

 

[Jamie123]

Funny, I thought a significant portion of my income came from adjusting leaf shutters that won't close. That particular adjustment is called a CLA, and I can do a quick and dirty shutter flush in the field, if I have to. Generally speaking, I take better care of my cameras than that and I've never had a disaster that gummed up a shutter all at once. Maybe if I accidentally dropped it into a pot of hot grease?

Now you're just taking the piss, right? I think it was pretty clear that I meant EXPOSURE adjustment, as in bracketing, which is tough with sticky leaf shutters as they can expose unevenly.
Anyways, maybe you can do a CLA in the field but I can't. I'm a photographer, not a repair guy. If I drag along stylist, hair- and MUAs I can surely go through the trouble of bringing a back-up. If I shoot for myself it's my own decision if I want to carry more and be safe or carry less and take a risk.
I don't take nude pictures of women in a forrest, though. My girlfriend's barely ok with me shooting clothed models so anything involving female nudity would not go over well

Yes, you did say that -- but you haven't done it yet.

It's not over until it's over.

 

[FallisPhoto]

Now you're just taking the piss, right? I think it was pretty clear that I meant EXPOSURE adjustment, as in bracketing, which is tough with sticky leaf shutters as they can expose unevenly.

Remove the lens, a few drops of naptha, and a dozen Q-tips later you won't have a sticky shutter anymore.

Anyways, maybe you can do a CLA in the field but I can't. I'm a photographer, not a repair guy.

I'm both. My gallery here is pretty much divided between photos I have taken of nudes, landscapes, and etcetera and photos of vintage cameras I have restored and rebuilt.

If I drag along stylist, hair- and MUAs I can surely go through the trouble of bringing a back-up. If I shoot for myself it's my own decision if I want to carry more and be safe or carry less and take a risk.

I generally take a lot of stuff with me. Stuff for lighting, at least two cameras, some tools, an assistant, a makeup and hair person, tripod, LOTS of film, various camera accessories, two meters (yes, with extra batteries for the digital one -- the other is powered by a solar cell), and so on. Might take a while to hump all that stuff into wherever I am going, but I figure it is better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. I just start early.

I don't take nude pictures of women in a forrest, though. My girlfriend's barely ok with me shooting clothed models so anything involving female nudity would not go over well

Then shoot her.

It's not over until it's over.

This may never end then.