New Leica M8s not incorporating upgrade---you pay extra

I don't really understand why people have to feel obligated to buy everything the best, newest etc. Thankfully leica set it at 1200 euros so people don't need pay for this because it is "newer" "better" "extra" etc. the high price is to prevent thoughtless, unmotivated moves :)

The upgrade would be good for really worn M8 with milliion acuations of the shutter or the shutter simply died or gonna do it soon ..

Leica is much more clever than I assumed.
 
Originally Posted by Andy Aitken
Leica have officially stated:

"The SDHC standard is an extended type of SD standard. This takes very extensive updating of the camera’s SD driver to accommodate them. Leica is working on such updates and will supply them in future firmware versions."

Some people say its a hardware thing but Leica appear to suggest otherwise. I guess we find out soon...


Hacker said:
Unless something has changed in the law of physics, this is pure spin doctoring.
Click to expand...

My limited research led me to believe that it was a hardware thing too. Not really knowing I just let the above statement go. Soooo....I guess the boys who brought you the magenta wedding outfits unknowingly, employed the magenta tester to write the SDHC press release, instead of firing him ;)

r
 
neelin said:
Originally Posted by Andy Aitken
Leica have officially stated:

"The SDHC standard is an extended type of SD standard. This takes very extensive updating of the camera’s SD driver to accommodate them. Leica is working on such updates and will supply them in future firmware versions."

Some people say its a hardware thing but Leica appear to suggest otherwise. I guess we find out soon...
Click to expand...

Leica could have had a draft of the SDHC standard when they brought out the M8. So hardware wise they may be OK with the SDHC standard. The problem may be in the firmware with the draft they were working with.
 
dcsang said:
Until there's some clarity and the smoke clears I would agree with you 100% on your final paragraph regarding nil sales.

If they actually OFFER the full package at the same price on new M8's then it may be a bit more palatable should someone want that.

I don't get it and, like Barret had said in the other thread, it makes me think that Leica is "making it up as they go along".

Cheers,
Dave
Click to expand...

It does seem a bit by the seat of the pants. But it's hard to believe the camera was accidentally designed with a degree of modularity that allows this upgrade program. That would be too good to be true. Plus their new owner has been hinting around at things for well over a year that now make sense after the upgrade announcement . So it seems the camera must have been designed with this kind of program in mind.

/T
 
Tuolumne said:
It does seem a bit by the seat of the pants. But it's hard to believe the camera was accidentally designed with a degree of modularity that allows this upgrade program. That would be too good to be true. Plus their new owner has been hinting around at things for well over a year that now make sense after the upgrade announcement . So it seems the camera must have been designed with this kind of program in mind.

/T
Click to expand...

Most cameras are modular in design. The relative simplicity of the M8 makes it easier for an upgrade path. In a few years we might just see Nikon and Canon offer a base unit that can be upgraded as the M8 can now be done....
 
The D-Lux 3 has SDHC support and it costs how much less?

To me, and it's just my opinion, this upgrade is a bit of a joke, especially if you're happy with the photo's you're already getting. No one is forcing anyone to upgrade ones camera. From what I read also, the upgrade is only avaliable for a limited time (sighting press releases I saw on LUF).

Even Canon and Nikon can't please everyone, people. Remember that.
 
I have some serious concerns about the lack of a clear road map for what we might have to pay for what upgrades later. The firmware update did fix the horrible AWB so for now, I am happy.

But $1,800 for a new LCD cover and new shutter assembly and 2 years of warranty is starting to sound like a money pit to me. I think they should have addressed the frame lines for this price. I am most certainly passing.

I just have a really odd gut feeling about this, and I usually have to follow that. As much as I like the M8, for the first time, I am thinking of selling it.
 
ErikFive said:
I really dont see why people give a damn. If there is nothing you like in that upgrade package why botter discussing it? Wait for the next one at Fotokina and decide again then. People seem to think that they have to do this upgrade?
Click to expand...

I guess, Erik, the discussion takes place because, well, when one thinks of an "upgrade" to an existing product they think of getting something that will improve the product overall - I don't think many people see this "upgrade" as an overall improvement. Some may like the 1/4000s and quieter shutter, some won't.
Some may like the saphire encrusted COVER (let's be clear, they have stated cover and not a new LCD screen based on the email folks have received) others won't.

Maybe it's me, but anytime I hear "upgrade" there are usually product improvements or fixes that couldn't be implemented via a "correction" or "fix". A version upgrade to software usually implements new features or fixes old bugs. Product line upgrades usually mean a new "model" with, potentially, software, ergonomic, design etc. upgrades to that particular product line.

The firmware update that Leica has provided does, indeed, fix some of the issues for the M8 (AWB for example) however to send in your M8 and call what they are goind to do to the camera for $1,775 USD an "upgrade" is a bit much.

True enough, no one is being forced to "upgrade" their M8 but, imho, this should not be termed as such.. call it anything else.. "update", "adjustment", "tweak", "parting-a-fool-and-his-money" or what have you...but Leica shouldn't try to kid the public that this is an "upgrade".

Just look at how it's being perceived by some of those who are not part of the Cult Of Leica: http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/01/leica-rolls-out-m8-hardware-upgrade-program-for-a-price/

Dave
 
Trius said:
Can you get the firmware without doing the upgrade? I would hope so.
Click to expand...

Earl,
As far as I know, yes, you can.

That makes me wonder why it's costing $1775 for the "upgrade" (I guess sapphires are really expensive and/or the airfare from Solms for that "personal pick up and delivery" is included in that $1775 USD price :D)

I think I'd just be very careful with the LCD screen and save myself the moolah :D

Dave
 
Remember to look at the big picture(pun!). Many of us have aquired Leica
gear over the years for a complex mixture of reasons involving quality, love of
the RF format, timelessness, the fondle factor,and yes, even snob appeal.
But if you are truly a Leica nut, then you have (or at least IMHO should)
much more invested in glass than in bodies. Glass is why you buy a Leica.
The M8's faults will be debated forever, but it's primary purpose was to bring
a digital platform for 50 years of lenses . The cost of the upgrade and indeed the M8 itself has to be put in the context of how much is it worth to you to be
able to use your top quality lenses in a digital format . The highest cost
Leica lenses are fast and relatively small. To me this is the key point of the RF system and the reason for me owning the gear. What are the alternatives
in size and cost for other digital equipment if you really do shoot a 35
and 50mm (or even 75mm) at 1.4 (let alone 1.0) ?
 
Erik, I care because it seems to me that Leica is going in the wrong direction by catering to affluent people with more money than sense. I used their film M bodies to shoot weddings and I enjoyed using them immensely - still do - but they've gone off the rails in the digital age. It's heartening, I suppose, that they've survived long enough to make a digital M at all, but between this announcement and the flash videos up on their website, I'm convinced that they think their future lies in catering to the needs of knob polishers and social climbers, and that's sad.

Seriously, if Nikon or Canon announced that they'd put a quieter shutter and scratch free LCD screen on your 5D for $1,000, we'd all be laughing our asses off.
 
dcsang said:
True enough, no one is being forced to "upgrade" their M8 but, imho, this should not be termed as such.. call it anything else.. "update", "adjustment", "tweak", "parting-a-fool-and-his-money" or what have you...but Leica shouldn't try to kid the public that this is an "upgrade".


Dave
Click to expand...

Dave,
That's why this is called a "marketecture" and not an "architecture".

/T
 
Dave,

Thanks for the link.

Typical for this forum - and others, are the US Leica users complaining about a alledgedly 'greedy' Leica managment, 'increasing prices', 'charging too much' and so on. They seem not to understand that these price increases arn't doings of the Leica managment as such, but purely compensation for the fall of the US dollar.

Now the US Fed has reduced the interest rate from 4,25% to 3% to cick start something they call 'the US economy'. What does that mean? What is the cost of that?

- The dollar will fall. Even more.

The cost is that the price of M8 - and the upgrade, - and all other imports, will be even more expensive. The Leica managment can't be blamed for that.

Over here it is € 1200 for the 'upgrade'. Also for us it's a stiff charge. Having just sent my M8 off to Solms with a red line across the picture, the extra 2 years of warranty sounds tempting.....
 
trph_2000 said:
What are the alternatives
in size and cost for other digital equipment if you really do shoot a 35
and 50mm (or even 75mm) at 1.4 (let alone 1.0) ?
Click to expand...

While I agree with you on why we shoot an RF and that there's a lot invested in Leica glass to those that own it, in terms of a cost break down using 35 and 50 and.. well.. let's say 85mm.... digital equipment; here's how I figure it looks:

Assuming brand new equipment @ today's B&H USD prices (not including shipping)
Leica
Body:
M8 $5495
Lenses:
35 ASPH Summilux $3895
50 ASPH Summilux $3295
75 ASPH Summicron $2995 (Lux not listed so I'm assuming it's not being produced)

Total cost: $15680


Canon (could just as well be Nikon imho)
Body:
1Ds MK III $7995 (one can make an argument for the 5D but I figure someone somewhere will whine "But the 5D is not the top of the line camera!!!" :D)
Lenses:
35 L $1119
50 L $1295
85 L $1664

Total cost: $12073


Now.. the pros/cons comparison:
Leica:
Pros - small-ish, lighter, easy to carry, status symbol, excellent lenses
Cons - expensive, crop sensor, no "pro" support (if you're a pro that is :D), $1775 to "upgrade" if you want a quiet shutter

Canon:
Pros - less expensive, full frame, excellent fast lenses, pro support (CPS)
Cons - heavy, not compact or small-ish


Which would/should someone choose?
If it were me, and I was going fresh, from brand new, I'd buy a 5D with those lenses and use the money left over to buy an M7 or MP and a 35 Lux (diff in price b/w a 5D and 1Ds MK III is $5886 USD :D) - that's the difference and cost for wanting to shoot digitally with fast excellent glass :D

Cheers,
Dave
 
Dave,
Thanks for the reply. I agree completely.


One more thing. Are we getting close to the point where futher improvements in digital will have very little practical meaning and
progressively less appeal to the vast majority of consumers?
I grew up at a time when I saw things go from LP to 8-track to
cassette to CD for music. Shortly after CD's were introduced there was talk
of the next format, digital audio tape (half sized cassettes) or new
smaller CD's. However, these never got off the ground because most
people were satisfied with the quality and practicality of regular
CD's. Things didn't change for 15 years until MP-3 music developed.
 
Olsen said:
Dave,

Thanks for the link.

Typical for this forum - and others, are the US Leica users complaining about a alledgedly 'greedy' Leica managment, 'increasing prices', 'charging too much' and so on. They seem not to understand that these price increases arn't doings of the Leica managment as such, but purely compensation for the fall of the US dollar.

Now the US Fed has reduced the interest rate from 4,25% to 3% to cick start something they call 'the US economy'. What does that mean? What is the cost of that?

- The dollar will fall. Even more.

The cost is that the price of M8 - and the upgrade, - and all other imports, will be even more expensive. The Leica managment can't be blamed for that.

Over here it is € 1200 for the 'upgrade'. Also for us it's a stiff charge. Having just sent my M8 off to Solms with a red line across the picture, the extra 2 years of warranty sounds tempting.....
Click to expand...

Hey Olsen,
I never heard that before. Perhaps you should say it a few times again so we don't forget. :p

/T
 
trph_2000 said:
Dave,
Thanks for the reply. I agree completely.


One more thing. Are we getting close to the point where futher improvements in digital will have very little practical meaning and
progressively less appeal to the vast majority of consumers?
I grew up at a time when I saw things go from LP to 8-track to
cassette to CD for music. Shortly after CD's were introduced there was talk
of the next format, digital audio tape (half sized cassettes) or new
smaller CD's. However, these never got off the ground because most
people were satisfied with the quality and practicality of regular
CD's. Things didn't change for 15 years until MP-3 music developed.
Click to expand...

The current crop of full frame dSLRs (Nikon D3, etc.) pretty much max it out. So, I would say, Yes. But the future may require digital video of photogs, so they'll add that to the dSLRs and we'll have another 5 years of upgrades for that. You never arrive at the future. It's always a step beyond.

/T
 
Dave,

Thanks for the very systematic and comparison between Leica M8 and the Canon 1Ds III. I have a 1Ds II and plan to buy a III. (I see of the 1Ds III price that it is some 12% cheaper than the 1Ds I bought in back 2003, - in my local currency NOK).

When I compare the M8 files with the ones from my 1Ds II, they are very similar in resolution, but with a small edge of advantage to the M8. The M8 sensor looks like a 1Ds II sensor, only that it is cropped. An object at the same size from the camera is shown as just as large on both files. But one square cm of M8 is slightly sharper than a square cm of the Canon file. I guess the difference is the optics. So, the M8 has an edge on the 1Ds II, at least.
 
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