new Pixii Max (fullframe)

[Godfrey]

What I wrote is what I believe to be overall correct in concept, but not entirely, specifically, exactly the way a sensor is made or how they do the computations. It's easy to get lost in the details of implementation; I'm neither a sensor designer nor implementation engineer. I am a mathematician by training.

The fact is that the Pixii supports both RGB and monochrom raw output. Measurements I took while I was testing the Pixii in early 2022 with a continuous white to black target subject, in monochrome capture mode, indicated the monochrom mode approached a close approximation to a 16bit step file. Good enough for me! 🙂

G

 

[sojournerphoto]

Sure, I understand that, but the extrapolated luminance value is no more useful than a monochrome converted raw file - the results of my test of pixel values from a converted sensor camera processed in Monochrome2DNG were like those from this site: monochrome camera conversions – the quest for improved resolution | JMC Scientific Consulting Ltd - but when I then also compared it against a monochrome sensor, there was a lesser improvement in resolution from the converted sensor than for a monochrome sensor of the same size and pixel density using the same lens. So something is going on, and the amount of information processing by the camera is unclear to me. The information written directly into the DNG file might explain it, but I don’t have the option with my Monochrom of using a different raw format. It could also, of course, be an effect from losing the microlenses.

You made an important point about how the raw files from cameras that have had the Bayer filter array removed are treated by any processor - if the raw file doesn’t change to identify itself as a mono file, then the processor will continue to try and demosaic it and so will actually reduce resolution.

In the case of the Pixxi, given the Bayer filter array is always there, creating a synthetic monochrome DNG is subject to the same resolution limits that apply to any three colour capture using a Bayer array - so there is a user experience difference, but nothing that can’t be done with a raw file outside the camera (although they may be doing things that other software providers aren’t, of course).

One of the things I’ve noticed, but can’t quantify, is that there is a beauty to the files from the M9m and M11m that is quite noticeable when you open them. These are the only mono digital cameras I’ve used, but I suspect the same would apply to the Pentax and other Leica generations.

 

[shawn]

You made an important point about how the raw files from cameras that have had the Bayer filter array removed are treated by any processor - if the raw file doesn’t change to identify itself as a mono file, then the processor will continue to try and demosaic it and so will actually reduce resolution.

That is what Monochrome2DNG takes care of.

 

[sojournerphoto]

That is what Monochrome2DNG takes care of.

Excellent - that’s interesting.

 

[Godfrey]

...
One of the things I’ve noticed, but can’t quantify, is that there is a beauty to the files from the M9m and M11m that is quite noticeable when you open them. These are the only mono digital cameras I’ve used, but I suspect the same would apply to the Pentax and other Leica generations.

That's certainly true of the Leica M10 Monochrom. I've been rendering monochrome from color digital cameras since my first digital camera (about 1998, IIRC) and getting good results, but the M10-M goes well beyond what the others have been capable of.

The Pixii I tested in 2022 did nicely, no disparagement intended:

Roots & Leaves - Santa Clara 2022
Pixii + Tri-Elmar-M 28-35-50mm (MATE}
ISO 200 @ f/5.6 @ 28mm setting
Monochrom DNG mode


Surfacing - Santa Clara 2023
Leica M10 Monochrom + Summicron-M 50mm f/2, Green Filter​

Similar photos...

G

 

[Freakscene]

All the Monochroms produce beautiful files. Even the typ 246, which I hate, possibly more than it deserves, because its 12 bit files have some unpleasant characteristics. The Pentax K-3 iii Monochrome also produces beautiful files, which has really surprised me and made me think some lower contrast Leica lenses might help me in some situations.

I am interested in the Pixii but the one I tried had very challenging banding under artificial light. If they can use a global shutter or a mechanical shutter I’ll be more interested. The effective shutterpeed for most sensors is in the 1/60s range.

MM


Typ 246


M10M


M11M


Pentax K-3 iii Monochrome

 

[raydm6]

All the Monochroms produce beautiful files. Even the typ 246, which I hate, possibly more than it deserves, because its 12 bit files have some unpleasant characteristics. So does the Pentax K-3 iii Monochrome, which has really surprised me and made me think some lower contrast Leica lenses might help me in some situations.

I am interested in the Pixii but the one I tried had very challenging banding under artificial light. If they can use a global shutter or a mechanical shutter I’ll be more interested. The effective shutterpeed for most sensors is in the 1/60s range.

M10M

This one is exceptionally beautiful @Freakscene.

So much to ponder in this image.

Well done!

 

[Freakscene]

This one is exceptionally beautiful @Freakscene.

So much to ponder in this image.

Well done!

Thank you. I plan to try to return to Rajasthan as soon as I can.

Marty

 

[Shab]

One more thread that I the end up thinking "I don't need a Monocrhome camera!!, I don't need a Monocrhome camera!!, I don't need a Monocrhome camera!!... but I want!!".

 

[Freakscene]

One more thread that I the end up thinking "I don't need a Monocrhome camera!!, I don't need a Monocrhome camera!!, I don't need a Monocrhome camera!!... but I want!!".

Sorry. But if you do it, you won’t regret it. My M10M has taken about 5,000-10,000 photos/year for over 4 years. If you work that out just in film cost, let alone the chemistry and the time to process and print or scan it (I often edit my files on public transport or in my lunch break at work), the camera seems cheap.

The Pentax is relatively affordable, and some are appearing on the used market now. Pentax lenses are very affordable.

Again, apologies,

Marty

 

[Shab]

Don't worry Marty, I ernjoy a lot with your b/w pictures and your explanations... and I wrote my post in a way that I tried it to be like a "joke", sorry. It's like I'm convincing myself to buy a Monochrome camera... but I don't know which one... and when I've read this thread I have thought "oh no, here we go again!! with a small smile".

Warmest regards,
Xabier.

 

[boojum]

Strangely, I started with B&W as that was pretty much it, especially for a Baby Box Brownie. And with the Vito II you see to the left I bulk loaded Plus-X and then Tri-X. But after years of color I just do not get mono. And it is different. Many cameras will render mono JPG's and color RAW. Pixii does one format and color choice only. It's either or. Pixii will do native raw mono DNG. This is great. It is billed as doing so at the cost of one f-stop. IIRC the DNG's are 16-bit which is nice, I am uncomfortable with mono so maybe I should shoot the rest of the summer mono DNG with the Pixii in the hope I will get better at it. I can edit it in ART for export to JPG and learn ART into the bargain.

As has been pointed out above the electrons are free and I can put a lot of images onto that 32GB internal storage. And in September Pixii goes home to become FF. Bottom line, if I am going to learn mono it is great to be able to do so in native RAW.

 

[Coldkennels]

All the Monochroms produce beautiful files. Even the typ 246, which I hate, possibly more than it deserves, because its 12 bit files have some unpleasant characteristics.

Typ 246
View attachment 4840510

What's wrong with the 246? I've been on the fence about buying one for ages, and this looks lovely to me...

 

[Freakscene]

What's wrong with the 246? I've been on the fence about buying one for ages, and this looks lovely to me...

The 12 bit files have banding in the shadows. I usually underexpose to salvage the highlights - noise is rarely a problem with these cameras - so I often lift parts of the shadows pretty hard. The photos band, to the point where some photos look like they were taken through a fence.

Mine was also terribly slow, mainly in turning on and waking from sleep mode, but it also had longer shutter lag than I expected. Leica always said it was fine when I had it serviced.

Also the live view is basically useless - it is very poorly responsive and the focus point can’t be moved around the screen.

None of this might matter to you, and when it works the files are gorgeous.

 

[Charles2]

Will readout from FF sensor avoid rolling shutter effects? A reviewer of an APS-C Pixii wrote:
I could hardly detect any rolling shutter effects. That’s good news because, after my experience with the Sigma fp-L, I’d somewhat lost faith in an all-electronic shutter. I was able to achieve some effects when shooting cars passing by at a close distance and in fluorescent (neon) light ... maybe the merit of the 64-bit processor.

New kid on the block: The Pixii rangefinder camera review gives you the full story

The Pixii rangefinder camera review (model A2572) assesses the top rated 26 MP APS-C sensor, minimalist design and new functions.

www.macfilos.com

Readout should be as fast on the Max, considering that it has slightly fewer pixels than the latest APS-C model.

The full-frame Max model:
24.5MP BSI-CMOS sensor
6064x4040 active pixels, 5.94µm pixel pitch

The APS-C model A2572+:
26MP BSI-CMOS sensor
6244x4168 active pixels, 3.76µm pixel pitch

 

[boojum]

The 12 bit files have banding in the shadows. I usually underexpose to salvage the highlights - noise is rarely a problem with these cameras - so I often lift parts of the shadows pretty hard. The photos band, to the point where some photos look like they were taken through a fence.

Mine was also terribly slow, mainly in turning on and waking from sleep mode, but it also had longer shutter lag than I expected. Leica always said it was fine when I had it serviced.

Also the live view is basically useless - it is very poorly responsive and the focus point can’t be moved around the screen.

None of this might matter to you, and when it works the files are gorgeous.

These are my complaints, too. The damned thing has glitches and is quirky, but it hands up nice images. That's about it in a sentence. Since the entire company is 3 to 5 people I am surprised it works at all. This is a true boutique camera. The CEO, David Barth, quipped it is still a collector's camera.

I have been along for the ride since the A1571, then the A2572 and now through the A2572+ to the Max. The + is a must to get to the Max. It is serial not hopscotch or a la carte. It is prix fixe, though. LOL

I have been shooting a bit in DNG mono but just do not like it. I will try the rest of the summer to see how it works out. It may change for me from yeccch to great. It is a skill I must learn.

Rolling shutter? Only a problem with LED lights so far.

 

[shawn]

Will readout from FF sensor avoid rolling shutter effects?

No, non-global shutter full frame sensors can show rolling shutter effects.

You can see the various readout speeds of a number of different electric shutters here.

https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/

If you see the rolling shutter effects is going to depend on a number of factors including readout speed, shutter speed (flickering), focal length and movement within the image.

Flickering is related to shutter speed. The camera may have logic to avoid flickering if it can. My Sigma fp L warns that flickering artifacts are more likely in manual and shutter priority mode because in aperture priority and P mode the camera tries to detect flickering and chooses exposure combinations to avoid it. If you manually set a shutter speed that is going to show flicker there isn't anything the camera can do to avoid it.

 

[Disappointed_Horse]

Not sure if this has been mentioned previously in this thread, but David Barth appeared recently on a podcast that I listen to: Prime Lenses Episode 13 - David Barth — Iain Farrell.

 

[panatomic]

The camera might not be able to do anything, but the photographer can. A shutter speed of 1/60 (in NTSC countries) or 1/50 (in PAL countries) or a multiple thereof will clear up the banding.

 

[boojum]

Not sure if this has been mentioned previously in this thread, but David Barth appeared recently on a podcast that I listen to: Prime Lenses Episode 13 - David Barth — Iain Farrell.

Thanks for the heads-up on this. I am listening to it now.