[New test photos released] Leica Summicron 35/2 Eight Element copy made in China

Do you mean comparable to the original Leica lens?

I'm not sure because I haven't ever used one. It's a reason I asked here back in December in order to determine whether what I was seeing with mine was typical of the original. I still haven't gotten a clear answer. I'm also not sure how typical my LLL copy is of the lot. Some samples others posted after I raised concerns about my copy showed similar behavior. But other samples I've seen (though at lower resolution), were better, IMO.
 
This is with the original 8 elements Summicron from Leitz (Germany).

gelatine silver print (summicron 35mm f2 8 elements) leica m2

Erik.

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Erik, have you found focus shift in the replica and does the replica behave like the Leitz original?

I do not have the original anymore, so I cannot make a direct comparison (I used to have two: an M3 version and an M2 version) but from what I see both (LLL and Leitz) are very close. I prefer however the replica because it is black. I think the replica is mechanically better, but it is also heavier. No focus shift in the replica.

My favorite 35mm is however the Summilux 35mm f1.4 steel rim, second version, nr. 206XXXX.

gelatine silver print (summilux 35mm steel rim) leica mp

Erik.

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m2:

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Back focus on older f/2 rangefinder 35s is endemic and seems to operate in similar ways. The W-Nikkor 35mm f/1.8 definitely has it. So does the UC Hexanon. I seem to remember that the fabled IV Summicron also shifted somewhat. For these lenses, it seems to me that somewhere in the f/2 - 2.8 range was usually the optimized focus point, with the point drifting alot at f/4-8. By f/11, the DOF was saving the image at longer distances. By contrast, the Summaron does not seem to shift dramatically like the older f/2 lenses. This makes sense to me that you would shoot for DOF close up and then at a small aperture at hyperfocal distances. But with mirrorless and digital Leicas, I imagine you would just liveview it.
 
I have two copies now and having experimented with a focus chart at a few distances both copies focus shift backwards most strongly at f4 & f5.6. Mine are calibrated so that at f2 on an angled chart the the point of focus is in focus but it is not the middle focus point. This means that the DOF covers the shift adequately so no issues in real world usage. If anyone has the original lens I too would be curious to know if that shifts in the same way.
 
This is all very interesting information. I suspect that how one views a given image will also influence how noticeable focus shift is. For example when I first got the replica and did some tests on an M240, I noticed the shift immediately. But of course my habit is to check image sharpness by viewing at 100% on a monitor. Rangefinder focused portraits at f/4 and f/5.6 were blatantly out of focus. However, I printed one of those at 10" long and the effect was not as severe.

Now after sending my lens back for the factory to inspect and repair, focus shift at near distances is mostly within depth of field when reviewing images on the computer. These images will certainly not show the effect if printed 10 inches.
 
There are numerous "focus shift" grumblings with fast 35mm focal length rangefinder lenses, but I really think that these types of lenses require the users to know how to use them -- and manufacturers have not generally been good throughout history about explaining how to use these lenses. When lenses like the V1 35/2 Summicron and the 35/1.8 W-Nikkor came out, they represented some of the most (or "the most") advanced 35mm RF lenses made to that point. They were extraordinarily expensive. Leica and Nikon already had very competent, slightly slower 35s in the form of the Summaron 35/2.8 and W-Nikkor 35/2.5. The fast 35s shifted, the slower 35s generally did not.

Today, many people who are new or relatively new to RF photography get initially flabbergasted by the fact that their Summiluxes and pre-ASPH Summicrons "shift." If you are coming from a film or digital SLR, this comes as a shock as the vast majority of modern SLR lenses have no noticeable shift (and your mirrorless camera can now automatically compensate for any shift in the newest lenses anyway). While many people did not notice this too much during the film era, digital mirrorless is unforgiving for any lack of precise focus on the sensor plane. So yes, your V1-V4 Summicrons and older Summiluxes will look out of focus when correctly focused with the rangefinder at f/5.6 on digital (and also on film) because that is how the lens behaves. What is really great about digital is that with liveview, you can actually focus absolutely spot on at f/4-8 with fast 35s, whereas during the film era, you may have had to guess or manually compensate in some way. I do not really understand why one would use a digital M without liveview -- that's the whole point! 100% accurate focus every single time without worrying about the primitive native focusing system.

Although I have not handled any of these replicas, copying the original design will generally copy the original focus shift (like the UC-Hexanon's copy of the W-Nikkor copied almost precisely the shift of the original lens). The V1 35/2 Summicron was designed for pros who "needed" f/2 over f/2.8. The technology required to create an f/2 lens that focused accurately at that aperture required compromises. One of those compromises was that if accurate on the rangefinder somewhere at f/2-f/2.4-f/2.8, it was not going to be accurate at mid apertures. You would either use the Summicron wide open, and if you need to capture a larger scene, at f/8-11. I do not think that older Summicrons and Summiluxes were considered or are to be considered "general purpose" 35mm lenses. That is what the Summaron was for.
 
There are numerous "focus shift" grumblings with fast 35mm focal length rangefinder lenses, but I really think that these types of lenses require the users to know how to use them -- and manufacturers have not generally been good throughout history about explaining how to use these lenses. When lenses like the V1 35/2 Summicron and the 35/1.8 W-Nikkor came out, they represented some of the most (or "the most") advanced 35mm RF lenses made to that point. They were extraordinarily expensive. Leica and Nikon already had very competent, slightly slower 35s in the form of the Summaron 35/2.8 and W-Nikkor 35/2.5. The fast 35s shifted, the slower 35s generally did not.

Today, many people who are new or relatively new to RF photography get initially flabbergasted by the fact that their Summiluxes and pre-ASPH Summicrons "shift." If you are coming from a film or digital SLR, this comes as a shock as the vast majority of modern SLR lenses have no noticeable shift (and your mirrorless camera can now automatically compensate for any shift in the newest lenses anyway). While many people did not notice this too much during the film era, digital mirrorless is unforgiving for any lack of precise focus on the sensor plane. So yes, your V1-V4 Summicrons and older Summiluxes will look out of focus when correctly focused with the rangefinder at f/5.6 on digital (and also on film) because that is how the lens behaves. What is really great about digital is that with liveview, you can actually focus absolutely spot on at f/4-8 with fast 35s, whereas during the film era, you may have had to guess or manually compensate in some way. I do not really understand why one would use a digital M without liveview -- that's the whole point! 100% accurate focus every single time without worrying about the primitive native focusing system.

Although I have not handled any of these replicas, copying the original design will generally copy the original focus shift (like the UC-Hexanon's copy of the W-Nikkor copied almost precisely the shift of the original lens). The V1 35/2 Summicron was designed for pros who "needed" f/2 over f/2.8. The technology required to create an f/2 lens that focused accurately at that aperture required compromises. One of those compromises was that if accurate on the rangefinder somewhere at f/2-f/2.4-f/2.8, it was not going to be accurate at mid apertures. You would either use the Summicron wide open, and if you need to capture a larger scene, at f/8-11. I do not think that older Summicrons and Summiluxes were considered or are to be considered "general purpose" 35mm lenses. That is what the Summaron was for.
Thanks davidee. No "grumblings" here, just like to know how my lenses behave. Thank you for answering the question, so yes the original does it too. I get that a fast lens is going to be a compromise and a focus shift may be one compromise a designer has to take, but will it always be? I have used many old fast lenses that haven't shifted focus (at least to the same degree as this 35/2).

p.s. As someone who has only ever owned one digital camera after many film rangefinders, the MD 262, and plans to keep it that way until it breaks I have to disagree with your view on why you would use a digital camera, but I think that is a whole thread in itself 🙂
 
A tale of two lenses:

First, my LLL 8 elements has finally arrived! Got it just a few minutes ago. Haven't even taken a photo with it yet, but it's a heavy, well-built little beast. It feels about as heavy as my 24 Elmar and seems better made than my 50 Summarit 2.5 It's a little stiff but it's brand new. Can't wait to put it through its paces this weekend on film and digital.

Secondly, I got a call from my local photo shop that my TL 55-135, which had been sent to Leica for service after I dropped it on concrete, had returned. Over the phone a couple of months ago, I was told that Leica was offering me a new lens instead of fixing the old one, at an expensive but reasonable price, so I said yes to that. When I got the lens today, it was not in a box and, upon further examination, it's the same lens that was sent off. They didn't even fix it. I am going back to the shop tomorrow to see what's up, but I don't plan to pay for repairs that weren't made.

But, back to the good news: My LLL is here! I had hoped for brass but switched to black, and it's beautiful. Photos will follow, and will investigate to what extent it focus shifts.
 
Sorry -- my intention was not to accuse anyone in particular of grumbling. Heck, I myself am STILL grumbling about shift with my favorite lenses. 🙂. I am also 99% a film shooter, but I can appreciate how digital mirrorless can really help make these older lenses more useful and to overcome their focusing shortcomings on rangefinder cameras. Yeah, there are lots 35mm focal length lenses that don't shift -- like the excellent 35mm f/2.5 VC, but the 35mm f/1.4 VC had it. I have not seen anything reported about the 35mm f/1.4 ZM Distagon having any great shift -- but not sure as I have not put my hands on one yet.

Thanks davidee. No "grumblings" here, just like to know how my lenses behave. Thank you for answering the question, so yes the original does it too. I get that a fast lens is going to be a compromise and a focus shift may be one compromise a designer has to take, but will it always be? I have used many old fast lenses that haven't shifted focus (at least to the same degree as this 35/2).

p.s. As someone who has only ever owned one digital camera after many film rangefinders, the MD 262, and plans to keep it that way until it breaks I have to disagree with your view on why you would use a digital camera, but I think that is a whole thread in itself 🙂
 
Sorry -- my intention was not to accuse anyone in particular of grumbling. Heck, I myself am STILL grumbling about shift with my favorite lenses. 🙂. I am also 99% a film shooter, but I can appreciate how digital mirrorless can really help make these older lenses more useful and to overcome their focusing shortcomings on rangefinder cameras. Yeah, there are lots 35mm focal length lenses that don't shift -- like the excellent 35mm f/2.5 VC, but the 35mm f/1.4 VC had it. I have not seen anything reported about the 35mm f/1.4 ZM Distagon having any great shift -- but not sure as I have not put my hands on one yet.
Thanks davidde! No I didn't think there was any accusations 🙂. I looked at your site actually and think we might have the same tastes in lenses (you are clearly much better at using them than me though - loved the pictures).

I have the VC 2.5 and as you say that is spot on across the range. What I find interesting is that I used to have the VC 40 1.4, and then "upgraded" to a pre-asph 35 Lux, and while 40 shifted the Lux doesn't seem to (at least not much) - it was my understanding they were fairly similar lens designs. So what I was curious to get yours (and others) wisdom on if is there is an inherent compromise in going fast that cases the shift always to some degree, of if it's one thing that can be traded against say more coma (as you can tell I am no optical engineer!).

(Also worth clarify back on topic to the thread that I am loving the LLL 35 and it really is a great lens to use)
 
Interesting comments about focus shift with early fast 35's. I have several (Leitz 35/2 V1 and V3; Leitz 35/1.4 pre-aspheric; Nikon f/1.8; Canon f/2) and the only one where this seemed obvious was the Nikkor. But mostly I was shooting film and was not looking specifically for this.

As I had mentioned some time ago on this thread, I sent my LLL back to Kevin for focus issues. It did not occur to me that I might be dealing with focus shift rather than an issue with the RF cam, though. My lens (but not the other pre-production sample I was sent) front focused rather severely wide open in the 1 to 4 meter focus range. This does not sound like what others here are describing. But any thoughts?

I have yet to hear from Kevin that it has been successfully repaired (LLL did one attempt that Kevin said mis-focused beyond 4 meters IIRC), but I hope eventually to have the lens back and will comment on what others are, or are not seeing.
 
I have gotten my lens yesterday! I am extremely excited to take it out shooting over the weekend ! It a beautiful lens and from the few snaps I took with my digi I can't wait to see the results on film !
 
Thanks davidde! No I didn't think there was any accusations 🙂. I looked at your site actually and think we might have the same tastes in lenses (you are clearly much better at using them than me though - loved the pictures).

I have the VC 2.5 and as you say that is spot on across the range. What I find interesting is that I used to have the VC 40 1.4, and then "upgraded" to a pre-asph 35 Lux, and while 40 shifted the Lux doesn't seem to (at least not much) - it was my understanding they were fairly similar lens designs. So what I was curious to get yours (and others) wisdom on if is there is an inherent compromise in going fast that cases the shift always to some degree, of if it's one thing that can be traded against say more coma (as you can tell I am no optical engineer!).

(Also worth clarify back on topic to the thread that I am loving the LLL 35 and it really is a great lens to use)

The CV 35/2.5 is an exception as it's a Biogon design, whilst the range of earlier fast and slow 35mm lenses we're referring to here are almost exclusively double gauss.

I can second many users here: my favorite lens of all time, the UC-Hexanon that's married to my a-la-carte black paint M7, shifts like hell at f/4-f/5.6 on a digital M. The now rather well known Konica document detailed how the lens was intentionally under designed for spherical aberration to keep the size down.
 
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